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Soba
As was mentioned in the HOTD2 thread, this probably needs it's own topic. Freely discuss your stance on the bills, but try not to be too cruel if this boils down to squabbling between members.

Personally, I'm against the bill. From what I've seen about it, it's just too easy for a site to be blacklisted, and security could be compromised potentially. And IF this bill passes, chances are there will be quite a bit of varied protests.

SO my dear friends of PA, what's your take?
Shmeckie
I doubt it'll even be passed. This isn't the first bill of its kind, and they all end the same way.
Master of AFTER
Ehh, any laws related to copyright and/or IP protection are always such a complicated beast that I find them difficult to comment on... The whole issue is a thorny one, to say the least.

On the one hand, I agree that something needs to be done about online piracy—say what you will about corporate greed, but piracy really does take a sizable chunk out of the profit margins for a lot of software and digital entertainment developers and it's totally unrealistic to expect them not to do anything about it. As a moral issue, I've yet to see anyone make a compelling argument why illegal downloads are any better than any conventional form of thievery; as a practical issue, all the crap people complain about regarding content streaming, DRM, DLC, online pass codes, and all that other bullshit currently causing headaches for people who buy software are largely due to companies trying to prevent (or recoup losses from) illegal distribution of their products. Even if you take the morality issue out of it completely, the fact remains that piracy benefits a small portion of people while causing no end of problems for the greater majority.

On the reverse side of the coin, bills like SOPA generally do a poor job of "fixing" piracy while oftentimes causing a variety of problems themselves. This particular bill foolishly places the responsibility of stopping piracy on companies that shouldn't have to waste resources becoming babysitters that have to constantly monitor the every action of their users—SOPA claims to be drafted for the purpose of protecting jobs, yet it's facing fierce opposition from corporate giants like Google, Facebook, eBay, and Mozilla, just to name a few. I think that fact alone is proof that the bill doesn't do what it aims to do. There's also the whole slippery slope issue regarding invasion of privacy and of course the numerous worrisome implications of increased government regulation over the internet.

TL;DR: Internet piracy is a legitimate problem that needs to be stopped before it cripples an industry that our economy relies on, but it's extremely difficult to say how exactly we should go about stopping it without opening a Pandora's box of legal and social ramifications. Obviously Congress doesn't have the answer, and I doubt they will until we get some politicians in there who actually understand how the internet and digital commerce work.
Soba
You hit the nail on the head boss, that's a lot of where I was coming from. Especially the bit regarding the slippery slope. I heard the bill had a lot of support, but I'd rather it not pass.
Kinomoto Sei
I saw something about this when I opened up Firefox today. Reading up about it, a lot of people are opposed to it, and for good reason.

As for the issues behind it, I agree with MoA that there are two sides to the coin. I don't think that piracy could be effectively stopped with legislation, and I think the problem lies in the thought that internet piracy can be put to a halt all at once. Although there is no clear solution just yet, I think that there could be something done about piracy if it starts with some of the most simple things, such as banning download websites. Although it wouldn't completely stop piracy right away, I think it would be a step in the right direction.
Viashino_wizard
QUOTE (Master of AFTER @ Nov 17 2011, 04:38 AM)
TL;DR: Internet piracy is a legitimate problem that needs to be stopped before it cripples an industry that our economy relies on, but it's extremely difficult to say how exactly we should go about stopping it without opening a Pandora's box of legal and social ramifications.  Obviously Congress doesn't have the answer, and I doubt they will until we get some politicians in there who actually understand how the internet and digital commerce work.
*

Hell, most politicians don't know how regular commerce works.
GFW
Piracy does need stopping somehow but this ain't the correct way. it dosen't stop them from being accessed, hell, you'll be able to access these sites just by putting in the IP! ALso you can just tell it'll be misused.
Soba
I've been looking, but I don't have any news on its' progress so far. There's a good chance that a LOT of citizens will protest this bill if it passes. Not saying that the protests will do anything, but who knows.
Al_Cone
QUOTE (Soba @ Nov 17 2011, 09:47 AM)
I've been looking, but I don't have any news on its' progress so far. There's a good chance that a LOT of citizens will protest this bill if it passes. Not saying that the protests will do anything, but who knows.
*


It has widespread support from both parties. It's a bifuckingpartisan bill, so of course it's something completely detrimental to society. That's just how the system works, I guess; when the parties work together, it's to push something stupid.

This one could conceivably pass, I think.
Viashino_wizard
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Nov 17 2011, 09:54 AM)
It has widespread support from both parties. It's a bifuckingpartisan bill, so of course it's something completely detrimental to society. That's just how the system works, I guess; when the parties work together, it's to push something stupid.

This one could conceivably pass, I think.
*

Hopefully google will throw enough money at them to change their minds.
Soba
I heard that at some panel, google was being bashed for it's support, something about pharmacy sites. But there are a lot of big companies against it.

There's a chance it will pass, but I wonder if it will be able to stay active for long. People will always find ways to get around internet laws, I've already seen people preparing for it.
TigerEyes
Honestly, I highly doubt that this would put a dent in piracy at all, even if it was passed. Even with all the censorship the Chinese government puts on the internet over there, China still has LOADS of piracy; even more so than here.

Actually have mixed feelings about the piracy over there, since it does allow them to get a chance to see a lot of movies/get a lot of information that would otherwise be censored and/or not distributed at all in the public markets...
Soba
QUOTE (TigerEyes @ Nov 17 2011, 01:04 PM)
Honestly, I highly doubt that this would put a dent in piracy at all, even if it was passed.  Even with all the censorship the Chinese government puts on the internet over there, China still has LOADS of piracy; even more so than here.

Actually have mixed feelings about the piracy over there, since it does allow them to get a chance to see a lot of movies/get a lot of information that would otherwise be censored and/or not distributed at all in the public markets...
*

That's a good example really. Methods like this just won't work, and good hackers will just have all sorts of fun destroying these things.
Master of AFTER
QUOTE (TigerEyes @ Nov 17 2011, 10:04 AM)
Honestly, I highly doubt that this would put a dent in piracy at all, even if it was passed.  Even with all the censorship the Chinese government puts on the internet over there, China still has LOADS of piracy; even more so than here.

Actually have mixed feelings about the piracy over there, since it does allow them to get a chance to see a lot of movies/get a lot of information that would otherwise be censored and/or not distributed at all in the public markets...
*

I think digital piracy in countries like China should be addressed as a separate issue because you do have factors to consider like how it's sometimes used to circumvent government censorship. If it wasn't for underground file sharing sites, countries like North Korea and Burma wouldn't even have access to news feeds besides the propaganda-saturated lies their own governments put out. In the US, on the other hand, piracy is a much more morally clear-cut issue where the motivation is almost always people trying to get out of paying for the things they own. Unless you're like Arc, of course, and think stealing software made by a company you don't like constitutes a righteous cause in the same vein as fighting against an authoritarian regime.
Soba
Ha, Arc is pirateman after all. Does anyone have any news about how the bill's doing? I haven't seen a whole lot online.
TigerEyes
QUOTE (Master of AFTER @ Nov 17 2011, 08:19 PM)
I think digital piracy in countries like China should be addressed as a separate issue because you do have factors to consider like how it's sometimes used to circumvent government censorship.  If it wasn't for underground file sharing sites, countries like North Korea and Burma wouldn't even have access to news feeds besides the propaganda-saturated lies their own governments put out.  In the US, on the other hand, piracy is a much more morally clear-cut issue where the motivation is almost always people trying to get out of paying for the things they own.  Unless you're like Arc, of course, and think stealing software made by a company you don't like constitutes a righteous cause in the same vein as fighting against an authoritarian regime.
*

I agree; that's a really fair way to put it.
GFW
The thing that annoys me about piraters is they are proud of it. On a forum I go on a guy posted saying that he happily pirated and didn't care if because of piracy his favourite artists had to stop recording because they couldn't afford it.
Soba
So Uh.... I know it's just committee but...
Al_Cone
QUOTE
Rep. Mel Watt (D-North Carolina) said he was not a technological “nerd,” but said he did not “believe” security experts who said that the internet would become less secure unless Issa’s amendment was adopted. “I’m not a person to argue about the technology of this,” Watt said before he voted against the amendment. Issa’s amendment failed 22-12.


"I have no idea how this shit works. Hmm. Better vote against it, just to be on the safe side."

fucking

EDIT: I love how he implies that experts--authorities on this issue, a company which he is not a part of--are just "nerds" and dismisses their council based on that judgment. North Carolina can fuck itself for electing this ignorant shit.
Soba
So, I'm getting more than a little nervous about this. Torch and pitchfork time, anyone?
Shmeckie
People...

This bill is political poison. It will not become law, and this is why...

- Very large technology companies are against it, and WILL pull their weight around, financially, if they have to.

- Voting for SOPA is going to be a giant shitstain on anyone running for re-election.

- President Obama is not going to shoot himself in the foot by signing a bill into law that will annihilate any chances of getting the youth vote he so desperately needs right now.

- The courts will not allow this thing to live a day. OBAMACARE is dead in the water, and that thing has more support among voters than this bill does, and is much less cut-and-dry about being unconstitutional than SOPA, which is blatantly unconstitutional.

Again, BILLS LIKE THIS COME UP IN CONGRESS ALL THE TIME. Every other torrent site you can go to makes absolute SURE you know about each one. They all end the same way. SOPA's just the first one the general public has been aware of, which makes it MORE likely to be shot down at some stage of the lawmaking process.

The only chance of survival SOPA has is a mass, cross-governmental conspiracy that would end up getting every single politician in office right now voted out.

All that said, yes, the honorable gentleman from North Carolina is an immense retard.
T_K_17
I've been following stuff like this since 2008, Shmeckie, and I don't recall any bills as far-reaching as this one get as close to passing as this one in that period of time, so I wouldn't say this happens all the time.

Even if it did, I don't see any problem with everyone getting in a frenzy over it, since that is apparently the only thing preventing politicians from passing it. They wouldn't know how dangerous it was to their reelection campaigns if they didn't see how opposed to it the general public was.
Shmeckie
This is true, and a little anger is fine, but what I object to is the paranoia, melodrama, and grandstanding. Just look at that goofy-ass site in Alex's sig!

It's making the internet very annoying to browse right now. Especially all the dorks doing the "I'm censoring my site in protest" bullshit.
Master of AFTER
QUOTE (Shmeckie @ Dec 15 2011, 10:15 PM)
This is true, and a little anger is fine, but what I object to is the paranoia, melodrama, and grandstanding. Just look at that goofy-ass site in Alex's sig!
*

Anti-censorship sites aren't exactly known for their restrained and level-headed approach when it comes to spreading awareness about policies that infringe upon people's rights. If you can find one that's a little less extremist in tone, please send me the link. Until then, I think I'd rather have people panicking over what they perceive as the looming shadow of an Orwellian nightmare future than go about quietly ignoring the latest in an ever-lengthening series of attempts by a technologically-illiterate government to cripple the most important advancement of free speech since the drafting of our Constitution.

To restate what I said on Twitter (or what I tried to say within the confines of that stupid character limit), the thing that disturbs me the most about this bill is the fact that it's gotten as far as it has. I would like to believe that we live in a nation led by people who value open communication and personal freedoms enough that policies as clearly dangerous as SOPA are identified as threats and destroyed before they can got off the ground, but obviously that isn't the case. You're right, the bill likely won't pass in the end; regardless, the fact that it's made it this far is still troubling. The fact that the bill has gotten any consideration at all shows that our elected officials are absolutely clueless when it comes to the nature of the internet and have no idea why censoring online communication would be so destructive to so many different aspects of our society. I mean, holy shit. We all knew the government was inept, but do they have to advertise it so blatantly?
Soba
I suppose it's the government itself that's kinda freaking me out more than anything, in retrospect. I long for a day when the government will have a decent grip of what it's doing.
Shmeckie
It is true; it is troubling that the bill has made it this far, but anyone following politics thus far would tell you it's not surprising to find that the government is this fucking inept.

Shit, they passed a bill that required Americans to buy a product. The constitution literally says you cannot do that, in the clearest of terms. Hence the third branch of government and their current beat-down of said legislation.

Our current goverment is morons. Hence my current cryo-stasis project.

President Christie. No sooner.
Soba
Three cheers for Judicial, then?
The Two-One-Five
QUOTE (Soba @ Dec 16 2011, 01:11 AM)
Three cheers for Judicial, then?
*

You mean the branch that literally stole their powers from under the table due to the loosely defined terms in the constitution?

Also, while I for the most part don't agree with this bill (due more to me being libertarian than caring about cheap bastards that don't want to spend 10 bucks on a DVD) I do think people are overreacting since there wasn't as much outrage when the net neutrality act was being talked about—which is more like what people perceive SOPA to be. This bill is just making so that common search engines like bing and google cannot show websites that make downloading easily.
Master of AFTER
QUOTE (The Two-One-Five @ Dec 16 2011, 03:12 AM)
Also, while I for the most part don't agree with this bill (due more to me being libertarian than caring about cheap bastards that don't want to spend 10 bucks on a DVD) I do think people are overreacting since there wasn't as much outrage when the net neutrality act was being talked about—which is more like what people perceive SOPA to be.
*

There was (and still is) plenty of outrage over net neutrality, and that's despite the implications of the principle being extremely vague in regards to how it would actually impact the internet. Most of the opposition I've seen is from people who think net neutrality is simply a ploy by internet service providers to jack up their rates and gouge customers who use the internet more than others.

SOPA, on the other hard, is much more targeted in what it intends to do and carries far more potentially disastrous implications for the average net user. It essentially makes the owners of any online network directly responsible for the actions of their users, which is a fucking nightmare for owners of any site that features user-generated content. Anyone in that category who doesn't have the resources to institute a system of constantly monitoring their users' every action and/or screening content uploads will likely be forced to end their services because of liability issues.
Jack of Blades
which would make the individual sites sponsors liable and cause them to lose money which would impact the economy worse then the pirating probably would.
Shmeckie
Major news outlets have started turning their attention to this, now. It was even on Drudge. If the people weren't gonna get pissed before, they certainly will, now.

And the likelihood drops further...
Badass Overlord
IRONY.
Shmeckie
Heeeeeey, look who's right about everything!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0112/71284.html
Tonfa
Oh hey Arc, what've you been up to these days?
Shmeckie
That's cold, bro.
Soba
Ha!

In all seriousness, you're lucky you turned out to be right, else I'd have to break you for lyin' to me, boy.
Tonfa
This thing would've been followed through just as strictly as the law about not taking a lion into a movie theater in Maryland should it have come to pass within the first week anyway.
The Chosen
QUOTE (Tonfa @ Jan 14 2012, 02:57 PM)

It looks like it's physically painful for Lamar to smile.
Soba
Ha, go figure.
Shmeckie
So yeah, looks like SOPA's done.

Who's up for pizza?
Al_Cone
QUOTE (Shockwave S08 @ Jan 14 2012, 05:06 PM)


They didn't support indefinite detention either, which shows you how good the Obama administration's word is.
Kirby2000
QUOTE (Shmeckie @ Jan 14 2012, 08:15 PM)
So yeah, looks like SOPA's done.

Who's up for pizza?
*


As I said to Jessica, don't get too cocky. We should wait till we are sure that the thing won't pass before we go get pizza.
Tonfa
Even if Obama does end up signing it, the final product is already shaping up to get watered down until it really becomes a hollow law amounting to little of what its supposed to actually stand for and quite possibly dishing out punishments amounting to nothing more than a "STOP ALL THE DOWNLOADIN' " reprimand.

Not to mention the House already canceled the hearing on the bill until there was a more consensus of the wording thanks in part to aforementioned watering down.

So eh.....yeah, I'll take mine with pepperoni, sausage and jalepenos.
Shmeckie
Pft. Now what's the innurnet gonna get righteously indignant about?! How am I gonna make Twitter stands, now?!
Viashino_wizard
QUOTE (Shmeckie @ Jan 14 2012, 09:49 PM)
Pft. Now what's the innurnet gonna get righteously indignant about?! How am I gonna make Twitter stands, now?!
*

#OccupySiliconValley
Soba
Good. I won't have to end your life, then, since you ended up being right.
T_K_17
QUOTE (Shmeckie @ Jan 16 2012, 07:57 PM)

It's actually only been shelved until a consensus is reached. Meanwhile PIPA is alive and well.

Do these bills still have a good chance of passing? No, not really; but I'm not going to pull out the party favors until both bills are six feet under and cold.
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