Student Loan Forgiveness Act, Good or bad idea? Options

[Arc Baltic]

So there's a bill right now being submitted to congress. Its the Student Loan Forgiveness Act . There is a brief summary of what it is. I think this is probably one of the best bills being put forward right now. I really like the idea. College education costs have increased exponentially in the last decade. While the requirement to have a degree has also increased tremendously. You can't get a job for anything without having a degree, besides food service. That is shit. I can personally stave off my debts, but, I am in a field that prints money. It is really hard to be in technology and not make money hand over fist. Does that mean everyone should be applying for technology based jobs? Fuck no. I am watching friends from Liberal Arts majors struggle like fuck to make ends meet with their loans. Also I know several friends who have dropped out. They now have no hope of paying their debts ever with a minimum wage job. That is bullshit.

[Agnitio Ex Machina]

So there's a bill right now being submitted to congress. Its the Student Loan Forgiveness Act . There is a brief summary of what it is. I think this is probably one of the best bills being put forward right now. I really like the idea. College education costs have increased exponentially in the last decade. While the requirement to have a degree has also increased tremendously. You can't get a job for anything without having a degree, besides food service. That is shit. I can personally stave off my debts, but, I am in a field that prints money. It is really hard to be in technology and not make money hand over fist. Does that mean everyone should be applying for technology based jobs? Fuck no. I am watching friends from Liberal Arts majors struggle like fuck to make ends meet with their loans. Also I know several friends who have dropped out. They now have no hope of paying their debts ever with a minimum wage job. That is bullshit.

Unlikely to pass due to the track record of the current congress. We're talking about this bill being American, right?

[Arc Baltic]

Unlikely to pass due to the track record of the current congress. We're talking about this bill being American, right?

The idea of the bill itself. We could go anywhere with this conversation I suppose. Is education a right? Is it a want? Is this the government's mess to clean up? The bill itself is just the center piece for discussion. Additionally I even imagine someone may discuss clairvoyance.

[TigerEyes]

"You dropped a 150 grand on a fuckin' education you could have gotten for a dollar fifty in late charges at the public library." - Good Will Hunting

Not how I feel about all college education; obviously, there are certain fields that require you to have certified degrees. Kinda how I feel about my own college education, though. Although I didn't spend that much, thankfully. =P

While I do sympathize with the students who are struggling with thousands of dollars (or even HUNDREDS of thousands of dollars) of student loans, I can't help but feel that this bill is side-stepping the real issue, which is a total lack of financial planning abilities. If you were going start a business, you would come up with a business plan (including what the risks and your biggest expenses will be, and if you can safely manage them), look at the market, look at your competition, figure out what your primary customers are demanding but not getting, look at how you can position yourself to stand out from the competition, etc., etc., etc., but most college students just look at...their schedules. And how long it will be before they graduate and magically start "making it" in the real world somehow without realizing that even in the most "in-demand" fields, and even when they are technically employees, they are still essentially "in business for themselves", and should treat it as such.

My mom is a teacher and has tons of faith in the education system. She knows it has its problems, but she still largely depends on it what with being a teacher and now with pursuing her doctorate degree. There's nothing wrong with that by itself, but her attitude when I was growing up was basically, "It doesn't matter how much money you need to take out, as long as you go to college and graduate." I don't think she would ever say those exact words, but that was the general attitude. That's all people think they NEED to get a high income, and maybe it WAS that way in her generation, but it's not anymore. I'm speaking generally now, because I honestly think that my mom cares more about "going to college and graduating" than she cares even about having a high income.

Compare that with my husband's attitude, who was flabbergasted to learn how many student loans I had, and was STILL incurring at the time (since I was enrolled in acupuncture school when we were dating). He promptly sat me down and told me the Chinese attitude toward taking out student loans for college, which seems to be: "It doesn't matter what field you're in. You position yourself as an asset to any school before you even get out of high school. You get the best grades you can, be in as many extra curriculars as you can (one of our friends actually started a math club and a chess club and made himself president and vice president of them in high school just to put it on his college application), and you get AS MANY scholarships as you can. Pay out of pocket if you need to, but if it ever comes to the point where they're asking you for student loans, you laugh in their faces and walk away. Then, you find another school who IS willing to work with you." Colleges are a business, and YOU are the paying customer.

We eventually decided after researching that the markets for acupuncture were too saturated in California (and it also wasn't my primary career goal anyway), so I left the school. As for my original college education, I admit that I actually never wanted to do it. I WANTED to go to an acting school, and had even been accepted by one. But my mom didn't want me to do it, because "IT'S NOT COLLEGE!!!!!!" In retrospect, I don't either would have been a good choice, actually. I've learned FAR more from the small voice acting classes that are actually run by industry professionals who are actually WORKING in the field, then I did at either my college, or at the acting summer school I went to (where the only profession of all the teachers in both places was teaching). That's just for me, though, of course. Everyone has different goals, so their paths will probably be different. Although, I'm still grateful for the experiences I had, since having this variety of experiences is what helped me be able to see that I DO have a choice in how I direct my education, and how to get the best I possibly can. Plus, it's made me appreciate it all the more.

You can't get a job for anything without having a degree, besides food service.

Food service is one of the most plentiful job markets, but it's certainly not the ONLY job market. There are plenty of jobs out there that don't absolutely require degrees no matter what.

And just to give an example of a creative work-around, my husband and I have a good friend who is a CPA by practice, but not by license. This is the same friend who started the math and chess clubs in high school, by the way. He's able to practice legally as long as a certified CPA signs off on all his work. I'm not sure whether he was self-taught or went to a school, but either way, he just doesn't have his license.

He made great money working for a CPA firm (that he helped found, although he wasn't a partner), until he got replaced by someone younger than him (who is not certified either, by the way). Our friend had actually been mentoring this younger person and teaching him everything he knows too, which was kinda a kick in the face. But, he's been doing fairly well for the most part in the meantime, taking odd jobs in accounting and data entry here and there, helping people out for free (he's very passionate about it), helping other people start their own businesses as an investor, while mentoring them... We talk business with him a lot, and he was even mentoring my husband for a time when he helped my husband find a data entry job. That job didn't work out because although my husband found it interesting, sitting in front of the computer for hours and hours was just not something he was used to, and it affected his health and energy really quickly. But, he learned a lot from the experience.

Although, our friend is WAY too picky about starting his own business, even though this is what he wants to do. He seems like he literally wants everything to be perfect before he makes a move. He's missed several opportunities by just researching, researching, and sitting and waiting too long. Before I even knew him, he had a water vending machine business that was nearly off the ground, except for one little EASILY FIXABLE hiccup that totally stopped him in his tracks. All he had to do was hire an American salesperson. He now claims that he could have started his business if only he had known ME. He REALLY doesn't like the idea of hiring strangers for some weird reason. Because, you know, there's no such thing as screening potential employees, or an interview process.

My husband suggested he open his own firm and partner with a certified CPA, and our friend WANTS to open his own firm, but he doesn't want to give 50% of his profits to someone else just for signing something. We think that's kinda dumb. As I said before, some fields do require you to have certificates. Either he can take the 50% and run with it, or actually get his damn certificate (which he has put off doing since FOREVER) so he can open his own firm by himself. Sure, you want to minimize your risks as much as possible, but NOTHING will EVER be perfect.

...

...

"HOLY THOUGHT-DUMP, BATMAN, GIVE ME A SUMMARY!"

So, do I think this bill is a good idea? In all fairness, it does look like it has a lot of good points to it, including the cap on interest rates, the cap on "forgiving the student loans" so the students are more mindful of how much they take out, the affordability factor, etc. Honestly, I hope it passes, even though that might be a long-shot. But, as I explained already, even if it does pass, I don't think that this will get to the root of the problem. From the way I see it, it seems like excessive student loan debt is a symptom, not the underlying cause. But hey, it's a start, I guess.

Although, one other thing that I don't think the bill addresses that I do find kinda absurd about student loans is that they don't go away if someone files bankruptcy. Just seems really weird.

This post has been edited by TigerEyes: Mar 18 2012, 12:05 AM

[Master of AFTER]

TE's post is a tough act to follow. She already made a lot of excellent points; suffice to say, I agree with her wholeheartedly.

The only point I have to add is that anybody who thinks that a student loan forgiveness system won't result in astronomical tuition increases isn't thinking realistically. Colleges are businesses, and the primary goal of every business is to make money. Student loans are a huge source of income for most universities, and if you take that away, they'll just find a way to get their money somewhere else.

A college education (a decent one, at least) won't become appreciably less expensive until we rebuild the entire educational system from the ground up, which I don't see happening anytime soon. I think the better solution is to move away from this "you NEED a college education to be successful" dogma that has become so deeply ingrained in our society. Most colleges have so many applicants that they can be as wasteful as they want and charge absolutely insane prices for tuition without running the risk of losing students because they've practically become a mandatory institution. You need to make the colleges work harder to attract students with better programs, more qualified faculty, and more reasonable tuition costs, and the only way to do that is to reduce their power as monopolies by pulling people out of the schools and giving them access to alternative ways to prepare for a career.

Student loan forgiveness won't accomplish anything unless we also place caps on tuition fees, hold universities to the same ethical standards we hold major corporations, legitimize vocational schools, and provide incentives for businesses to offer apprenticeships and internship programs without requiring applicants to have a college degree. Until we do that, a bill like the one in the question will only force schools to screw their students over in slightly less obvious ways while also giving them an excuse to cut even more programs and lower the quality of students' educations to the point where they're even more ill-prepared to enter the workforce upon graduating.

[TigerEyes]

TE's post is a tough act to follow. She already made a lot of excellent points; suffice to say, I agree with her wholeheartedly.

The only point I have to add is that anybody who thinks that a student loan forgiveness system won't result in astronomical tuition increases isn't thinking realistically. Colleges are businesses, and the primary goal of every business is to make money. Student loans are a huge source of income for most universities, and if you take that away, they'll just find a way to get their money somewhere else.

A college education (a decent one, at least) won't become appreciably less expensive until we rebuild the entire educational system from the ground up, which I don't see happening anytime soon. I think the better solution is to move away from this "you NEED a college education to be successful" dogma that has become so deeply ingrained in our society. Most colleges have so many applicants that they can be as wasteful as they want and charge absolutely insane prices for tuition without running the risk of losing students because they've practically become a mandatory institution. You need to make the colleges work harder to attract students with better programs, more qualified faculty, and more reasonable tuition costs, and the only way to do that is to reduce their power as monopolies by pulling people out of the schools and giving them access to alternative ways to prepare for a career.

Student loan forgiveness won't accomplish anything unless we also place caps on tuition fees, hold universities to the same ethical standards we hold major corporations, legitimize vocational schools, and provide incentives for businesses to offer apprenticeships and internship programs without requiring applicants to have a college degree. Until we do that, a bill like the one in the question will only force schools to screw their students over in slightly less obvious ways while also giving them an excuse to cut even more programs and lower the quality of students' educations to the point where they're even more ill-prepared to enter the workforce upon graduating.

Those are great points as well. Definitely agree.

[Shmeckie]

I'd also like to add that, at the risk of sounding like 215, people with liberal arts degrees might be having a problem because they have liberal arts degrees. As an artist, I can safely say liberal arts degrees are useless sacks of shit that are for people who want to go to college, but don't want to do any real work. They let you feel smart, sophisticated, and you get a "higher education" to flaunt without all the commitment to an actual career choice.

Y'know who else is fully aware of this? Employers.

I took out a student loan to go to a career school for a career I didn't even end up pursuing because, at the time, I thought it wasn't realistic to have a career in art. Now, with a freelance job AND a second part-time job, I manage to pay off my student loans just fine. If I can manage, we don't need some goofy-ass student loan forgiveness crap.

In other news, I want to make sure you're all aware that I make lots of money. Just thought I'd go on a tangent to remind you of that. I literally crap $100 bills. Big cash money comin' right outta my asshole. If you got money troubles I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but my bills ain't one.

[Al_Cone]

I'd also like to add that, at the risk of sounding like 215, people with liberal arts degrees might be having a problem because they have liberal arts degrees. As an artist, I can safely say liberal arts degrees are useless sacks of shit that are for people who want to go to college, but don't want to do any real work. They let you feel smart, sophisticated, and you get a "higher education" to flaunt without all the commitment to an actual career choice.

It depends on how you want to apply your degree. As an English major, I've had my fair share of existential angst and suicidal episodes regarding my potentially useless degree, but I've settled into a career path that will make good use of my talents and of the skills I'm learning. Basically, if you go to college to cultivate an inherent artistic talent, you'd better make goddamn certain that you learn how to apply it in a real-world setting.

Writing isn't strictly an artistic talent, granted. Writing is one of the most fundamental skills a person should have, maybe the most fundamental. But an English major needs to know how to write more than just pretentious literary analysis and criticism. I figured that out fairly quickly, and now I'm in a program where I'm learning how to do more than navel-gaze about literature.

In other news, I want to make sure you're all aware that I make lots of money. Just thought I'd go on a tangent to remind you of that. I literally crap $100 bills. Big cash money comin' right outta my asshole. If you got money troubles I feel bad for you son, I got 99 problems but my bills ain't one.

All in favor of changing Shmeckie's username to "Shmarckie," say aye.

[Shmeckie]

Oh, good, I was worried my joke was too subtle.

And really, in this day and age, if you have a discernible talent and skill with said talent, you don't even need college.

Or at least it will be that way again when this economy stops fucking stinking out loud.

[Arc Baltic]

TE's post is a tough act to follow. She already made a lot of excellent points; suffice to say, I agree with her wholeheartedly.

The only point I have to add is that anybody who thinks that a student loan forgiveness system won't result in astronomical tuition increases isn't thinking realistically. Colleges are businesses, and the primary goal of every business is to make money. Student loans are a huge source of income for most universities, and if you take that away, they'll just find a way to get their money somewhere else.

A college education (a decent one, at least) won't become appreciably less expensive until we rebuild the entire educational system from the ground up, which I don't see happening anytime soon. I think the better solution is to move away from this "you NEED a college education to be successful" dogma that has become so deeply ingrained in our society. Most colleges have so many applicants that they can be as wasteful as they want and charge absolutely insane prices for tuition without running the risk of losing students because they've practically become a mandatory institution. You need to make the colleges work harder to attract students with better programs, more qualified faculty, and more reasonable tuition costs, and the only way to do that is to reduce their power as monopolies by pulling people out of the schools and giving them access to alternative ways to prepare for a career.

Student loan forgiveness won't accomplish anything unless we also place caps on tuition fees, hold universities to the same ethical standards we hold major corporations, legitimize vocational schools, and provide incentives for businesses to offer apprenticeships and internship programs without requiring applicants to have a college degree. Until we do that, a bill like the one in the question will only force schools to screw their students over in slightly less obvious ways while also giving them an excuse to cut even more programs and lower the quality of students' educations to the point where they're even more ill-prepared to enter the workforce upon graduating.

The question I'd like to pose for you and TE is how can we save the already entrapped? A good majority of college students right now are fucked. One of my good friends is a Hospitality and Service Major (dumb as fuck degree, I admit), and now they have like 80k in loans. They make like $20 an hour. How are they ever going to see the light at the end of the tunnel? This bill is a band-aid, but, I feel it is better than letting the wound bleed all over the palace.

[Dr. O]

Well, it's already been said, but making student loans dischargeabe in bankruptcy would do a lot of good. But the only long-term solution is if cultural expectations change, since right now it seems like everyone in the US is convinced you need at least a bachelor's degree to get even an entry-level job, and if you don't have any degree then you're stuck flipping burgers for life. I remember my adviser telling me that a master's is the minimum to get any work in history, which is so incredibly stupid that I don't know how the field survives.

But if fewer people go to college and more start going to trade or vocational schools, or even just finding good work with high school degrees, then the student loan system would have to change, since it couldn't rely on being able to gouge the majority of young Americans the way it does now. Of course, to get there you have to change the way employers, educators, and a lot of average people think, but it's possible. Ideally, the loan system would be overhauled as part of an overall reform of the educational system, since a lot of what happens in college could easily be telescoped into high school anyway; and a lot of high school, in turn, is spent wasting time playing catchup, since elementary and middle schools will pass absolutely anyone, leaving higher education stuck with illiterates.

I mean, something that I think is easy to miss is that American education is hideously expensive at every level. My home state, for example, spends 50% of its budget on schools. But teacher pay is falling, technology budgets are a joke, a lot of schools can't afford necessary maintenance, and there is so much mis-allocation at the administrative level that it's at turns depressing and hilarious. You could not create a more wasteful, less effective system if you tried. Money issues are just more visible at the college level because students have to pay directly, but they're present everywhere.

Or, you know, we could copy some other country's education system that works. It would be hard to make sure we wouldn't be ruining students' lives in other ways, like Japan's, though.

[DeanTheAdequate]

I think we decided to steamroll ourselves into some sort of bizarre world where we have only two categories of jobs that can provide stability.

1) Jobs in which you need an advanced and expensive tuition

2) Jobs where you need three years of experience in that position

In the former the problem is twofold, the cost just can't be covered by most folks. There needs to be reform in the schools, sure. But ultimately there needs to be a change in the outlook of those doing the hiring too. I see it all the time, the same job listings over and over because they're passing over the kid that might have a lesser degree, but needs the cash to advance the knowledge. More companies need to understand that to keep a talented individual, you need them ASAP to get them to your way of thinking, and at the same time help them reach their eventual goal of an advanced degree. Some companies understand this and have programs for the school bound, but so few are willing to take risks.

The latter problem is the one I always face. I want to be an executive chef someplace nice, or perhaps someone who works in a test kitchen creating new things. But every time you hit that wall of 3-5 years experience. I understand wanting people who know the job already, but every job needs to be learned the ins and outs from the inside of the new job, right? ANd there is little to no promoting from within anymore. We lost that years ago for no discernible reason. The only way to fix this is to either lie a lot about your resume or actually shop for folks with the will to do the work instead of people who have done that work once before.

Ultimately I'm just going to come out sounding bitter no matter what I say on the issue of tuitions. Let's just say that being the WASP I was, I received about $800 in scholarships because I was an Eagle Scout. Everything else was on me, and that meant loans. So I worked full time on top of college and made it out. By the time I was married my father covered the last couple of thousand as a great wedding gift. We're still working on my wife's, but I've always felt that if you learn how to budget earlier, the easier it is to get your education. No not every situation is the same, and yes some people could legitimately use the help, but if I could pay mine, you can pay yours. Sorry.

[Al_Cone]

My home state, for example, spends 50% of its budget on schools. But teacher pay is falling, technology budgets are a joke, a lot of schools can't afford necessary maintenance, and there is so much mis-allocation at the administrative level that it's at turns depressing and hilarious.

I didn't realize Crofthenge was so messed up, 'oy.

[Master of AFTER]

I'd also like to add that, at the risk of sounding like 215, people with liberal arts degrees might be having a problem because they have liberal arts degrees. As an artist, I can safely say liberal arts degrees are useless sacks of shit that are for people who want to go to college, but don't want to do any real work. They let you feel smart, sophisticated, and you get a "higher education" to flaunt without all the commitment to an actual career choice.

'Cept no. Unless you're applying for a position that specifically requires education in a certain field, the majority of employers looking to fill low-level positions don't give a damn if you have a degree in Information Technologies or Advanced Butt Scratching. They just want you to have gone to college and gotten a piece of paper because it's an easy way to quickly identify individuals who are capable of following schedules and completing assignments. Sad as it is, that's really all it comes down to. "You have a college degree? Okay, so you already know how to take orders and meet deadlines. Great, that answers half of the interview questions right there!"

The idea that some degrees are more useful than others in the majority of non-specialized positions is a myth. Even if you have a degree related to computer programming, an employer is still going to want a list of the programs you know how to use, they're going to want to see examples of your work, they're going to make sure you have a good attitude and a strong work ethic, etc. And, if you get the job, you're still going to undergo training for the position regardless of how many years you spent in school learning how to do that thing, because how you actually apply whatever skills you might have gained will be different in every job. So really, as long as you meet all the other requirements, you could have just as easily gotten a degree in Women's Studies and it wouldn't have made a difference.

The question I'd like to pose for you and TE is how can we save the already entrapped? A good majority of college students right now are fucked. One of my good friends is a Hospitality and Service Major (dumb as fuck degree, I admit), and now they have like 80k in loans. They make like $20 an hour. How are they ever going to see the light at the end of the tunnel? This bill is a band-aid, but, I feel it is better than letting the wound bleed all over the palace.

This is going to sound cold—like stereotypically evil corporate villain cold—but most of the people drowning in dept from student loans kind of put themselves in that position. Nobody held a gun to your friend's head and told him "Go to college or I'll blow your brains out." If he didn't have the means to pay for his education or even a plan for how he would acquire the funds to pay off his future loans, then how is his situation really any different from someone who maxes all of their credit cards and then can't pay their bills? He should have looked ahead and honestly evaluated whether or not he could afford to go to school. Since he obviously couldn't, he should have explored alternate avenues for building a career path—had he done that, he might have figured out that a college degree wasn't his only option, and he could have done something that was more sensible for his personal situation given his budget.

There are some things that can be done to reduce just how screwed over people currently in dept are (such as eliminating student loans upon declaring bankruptcy, as others have already suggested), but once again, it comes down to an issue of balancing whether you want to nail current students with ridiculous loans or punish future students with ridiculous tuition. As long as we continue living in a college-dominated society, someone HAS to get bent over in order for the system to keep functioning.

I mean, something that I think is easy to miss is that American education is hideously expensive at every level. My home state, for example, spends 50% of its budget on schools. But teacher pay is falling, technology budgets are a joke, a lot of schools can't afford necessary maintenance, and there is so much mis-allocation at the administrative level that it's at turns depressing and hilarious. You could not create a more wasteful, less effective system if you tried. Money issues are just more visible at the college level because students have to pay directly, but they're present everywhere.

This is true. I think it says a lot about the effectiveness of the current system when our national test scores keep plummeting despite the fact that we're allocating more money to schools than ever before. It's no wonder that education reform is something on the agenda of every politician gunning for the presidency right now. Unfortunately, I think the only way to fix things at this point is a major restructuring of the entire system, and I don't know if anyone is willing to go that far.

[TigerEyes]

The question I'd like to pose for you and TE is how can we save the already entrapped? A good majority of college students right now are fucked. One of my good friends is a Hospitality and Service Major (dumb as fuck degree, I admit), and now they have like 80k in loans. They make like $20 an hour. How are they ever going to see the light at the end of the tunnel? This bill is a band-aid, but, I feel it is better than letting the wound bleed all over the palace.

What Alex said. Really comes down to a lack of financial planning on their part. Also, my husband makes about $10 an hour, and though I have a part time job now, we basically relied on his income last year. I was bringing in some money from odd jobs, but not really regularly. And yet, we still managed to pay off about $20,000 in student loans last year. I don't know what your friend's financial situation and obligations are, but come on... And as someone else said, how is their excessive student loan debt any different than if they had racked up this much money in credit card debt?

This post has been edited by TigerEyes: Mar 18 2012, 11:14 PM

[AverageGuy]

'Cept no. Unless you're applying for a position that specifically requires education in a certain field, the majority of employers looking to fill low-level positions don't give a damn if you have a degree in Information Technologies or Advanced Butt Scratching. They just want you to have gone to college and gotten a piece of paper because it's an easy way to quickly identify individuals who are capable of following schedules and completing assignments. Sad as it is, that's really all it comes down to. "You have a college degree? Okay, so you already know how to take orders and meet deadlines. Great, that answers half of the interview questions right there!"

Exactly. This is how people end up in fields completely unrelated to their majors, and it does happen frequently. A year or two ago, I was terrified of picking a major because I didn't want to lock down the rest of my life. As it happened, I was operating under some serious misconceptions, and discovering the aforementioned fact allowed me to pursue the degree I'm currently pursuing. I was a good writer (it was where my talent lay) and I wanted to get better, so I chose English literature because it dealt in the subject I was both good at and loved. As Al says though, it's one of the better liberal arts degrees to get insofar as it's more versatile than say, an anthropology degree, and I just want a job to pay the rent while I write anyway. I left my pursuit of a job in the medical field (THERE's where this discussion of student loan comes in) because I just wasn't okay sticking to such a regimented schedule for something I was only "capable" of doing and could make a ton of money doing ("helping people" was about as noble as my motivation got) rather than something I genuinely enjoyed.

This is going to sound cold—like stereotypically evil corporate villain cold—but most of the people drowning in dept from student loans kind of put themselves in that position. Nobody held a gun to your friend's head and told him "Go to college or I'll blow your brains out." If he didn't have the means to pay for his education or even a plan for how he would acquire the funds to pay off his future loans, then how is his situation really any different from someone who maxes all of their credit cards and then can't pay their bills? He should have looked ahead and honestly evaluated whether or not he could afford to go to school. Since he obviously couldn't, he should have explored alternate avenues for building a career path—had he done that, he might have figured out that a college degree wasn't his only option, and he could have done something that was more sensible for his personal situation given his budget.

There are some things that can be done to reduce just how screwed over people currently in dept are (such as eliminating student loans upon declaring bankruptcy, as others have already suggested), but once again, it comes down to an issue of balancing whether you want to nail current students with ridiculous loans or punish future students with ridiculous tuition. As long as we continue living in a college-dominated society, someone HAS to get bent over in order for the system to keep functioning.

I would agree with all of the above, although the majority of people just aren't this logical or resourceful. People who go to college are not the "educated elite" anymore- they're everybody because society has told everybody that they have to go to college. Some of the people I know who didn't go to college are very bright people and fit this description - these are the people who don't let a job define them, or who found jobs offered to them through their connections.
I'm going to college mostly because the church I used to attend is paying for it- they have a very specific scholarship fund that they only get if people continue to take from it, and I'm the only youth of my generation. I was very fortunate in that regard. (tuition is pretty cheap where I'm going though)
If I had no way to pay for college, I'd be likely to take a break from college and attempt to find a crappy minimum wage job for a year or two, I'd save just about everything, buy just about nothing, and in a while I'd probably be back on my feet.
I'm going to further your stereotypical evil corporate position by saying that the majority of people who get into this situation just aren't that bright. It should cross your mind as you're doing it that taking out a ton of loans isn't the best idea without some semblance of an actual plan.

This post has been edited by AverageGuy: Mar 19 2012, 07:05 AM

[Arc Baltic]

'Cept no. Unless you're applying for a position that specifically requires education in a certain field, the majority of employers looking to fill low-level positions don't give a damn if you have a degree in Information Technologies or Advanced Butt Scratching. They just want you to have gone to college and gotten a piece of paper because it's an easy way to quickly identify individuals who are capable of following schedules and completing assignments. Sad as it is, that's really all it comes down to. "You have a college degree? Okay, so you already know how to take orders and meet deadlines. Great, that answers half of the interview questions right there!"

The idea that some degrees are more useful than others in the majority of non-specialized positions is a myth. Even if you have a degree related to computer programming, an employer is still going to want a list of the programs you know how to use, they're going to want to see examples of your work, they're going to make sure you have a good attitude and a strong work ethic, etc. And, if you get the job, you're still going to undergo training for the position regardless of how many years you spent in school learning how to do that thing, because how you actually apply whatever skills you might have gained will be different in every job. So really, as long as you meet all the other requirements, you could have just as easily gotten a degree in Women's Studies and it wouldn't have made a difference.

What are you considering a non-specialized position? I know for a fact any engineering and computing jobs are going to require their degrees. Do note IT is not computing for all intents and purposes.

This is going to sound cold—like stereotypically evil corporate villain cold—but most of the people drowning in dept from student loans kind of put themselves in that position. Nobody held a gun to your friend's head and told him "Go to college or I'll blow your brains out." If he didn't have the means to pay for his education or even a plan for how he would acquire the funds to pay off his future loans, then how is his situation really any different from someone who maxes all of their credit cards and then can't pay their bills? He should have looked ahead and honestly evaluated whether or not he could afford to go to school. Since he obviously couldn't, he should have explored alternate avenues for building a career path—had he done that, he might have figured out that a college degree wasn't his only option, and he could have done something that was more sensible for his personal situation given his budget.

There are some things that can be done to reduce just how screwed over people currently in dept are (such as eliminating student loans upon declaring bankruptcy, as others have already suggested), but once again, it comes down to an issue of balancing whether you want to nail current students with ridiculous loans or punish future students with ridiculous tuition. As long as we continue living in a college-dominated society, someone HAS to get bent over in order for the system to keep functioning.

First how many 18 year olds have the ability to accurately gauge what the hell they are doing with their life? I sure as hell know I never really thought about my financial future. I got by pretty much on dumb luck and scholarships. I'd really hate to think what would have happened if I didn't make the work at the nuke plant thing permanent. Second, federal law doesn't let you eliminate student loans by going bankrupt.

I disagree that people have to be bent over to pay for the system. The system is poorly set up. It should be a priority to fix it. When this 10% loan thing happens, who do you think is going to give loans? When a Citibank says, "Fuck no G, I can't afford for your 10% dumbass to only pay me a percentage of my loss" what is a school going to do?

This is true. I think it says a lot about the effectiveness of the current system when our national test scores keep plummeting despite the fact that we're allocating more money to schools than ever before. It's no wonder that education reform is something on the agenda of every politician gunning for the presidency right now. Unfortunately, I think the only way to fix things at this point is a major restructuring of the entire system, and I don't know if anyone is willing to go that far.

The problem is that we have to admit there is something wrong with our education system. Americans are much like me in that they really really hate to admit they are wrong.

[The Two-One-Five]

Well, I'm sure you've all been waiting to hear my opinion on this and mine is a practical one: think shit out. Granted, I do blame society for telling dumbass that they need a college degree to get ahead in life, or reminding people that just because a degree is hot right now it wont mean that when you get that degree it will be in high demand. And, honestly, in a few years people with practical skills like car maintanence, electrician, and plumbers will be making far more than the asshole who majored in business administrassion since they will be in high demand. I mean, I know a guy who majored in film studies and he's pulling minimum wage, whereas another one of my friends from HS became a firefighter and he's reapping the benefits. doing what you like is great in theory, but fucking think shit out before you do anything. Furthermore, to add to what the boss said, look at what happened once LBJ passed his student loan bill reform: the pricess skyrocketed since colleges knew they had an infinite supplu of money from the government. The same will happen if people don't bother thinking about what the get themselves into. "Just go to college to party and major in communications, someone else will foot the bill." Instead of "Everyclass I take I'm footing the bill for, I need to think shit out."

And, honestly, if student loans are a fucking problem then join the military. I mean, the Airforce encourages college and in some fields a college education is a requirment. "But I don't want to go to war." Well then quite being a bitch, nancy.

[Shmeckie]

And, honestly, if student loans are a fucking problem then join the military. I mean, the Airforce encourages college and in some fields a college education is a requirment. "But I don't want to go to war." Well then quite being a bitch, nancy.

Says the guy stationed in allied nations.

[TigerEyes]

First how many 18 year olds have the ability to accurately gauge what the hell they are doing with their life? I sure as hell know I never really thought about my financial future. I got by pretty much on dumb luck and scholarships. I'd really hate to think what would have happened if I didn't make the work at the nuke plant thing permanent.

This IS a big problem. Making money and managing our finances is something that is in pretty much all of our lives, and yet the biggest "financial education" most people get in schools is how to write a check. And maybe some vague things about the stock market and/or retirement funds. It's a joke.

I disagree that people have to be bent over to pay for the system. The system is poorly set up. It should be a priority to fix it. When this 10% loan thing happens, who do you think is going to give loans? When a Citibank says, "Fuck no G, I can't afford for your 10% dumbass to only pay me a percentage of my loss" what is a school going to do?

The problem is that we have to admit there is something wrong with our education system. Americans are much like me in that they really really hate to admit they are wrong.

Think pretty much everybody agrees that the system is in desperate need of some heavy repairs. All we're saying is that there are ways to work around these issues in the meantime. And the sooner people wake up and start taking responsibility for their education and their finances instead of waiting for the government to "save" them, the better off they'll be. If the government does happen to throw them a bone, that'll just be the icing on the cake.

This post has been edited by TigerEyes: Mar 20 2012, 06:02 PM