Student Loan Forgiveness Act, Good or bad idea? Options

[Arc Baltic]

This IS a big problem. Making money and managing our finances is something that is in pretty much all of our lives, and yet the biggest "financial education" most people get in schools is how to write a check. And maybe some vague things about the stock market and/or retirement funds. It's a joke.

To roughly quote fight club. We have been raised to think we are going to be ceo's and princesses. The degree is seen as the magical vehicle to get there. Trying to say, "Well Timmy you should go into the work force after highschool because Mom and Dad can't afford to send you to college because they together make 60000 which is too much to get anything but a loan" is going to get most people to roll their eyes at you.

Think pretty much everybody agrees that the system is in desperate need of some heavy repairs. All we're saying is that there are ways to work around these issues in the meantime. And the sooner people wake up and start taking responsibility for their education and their finances instead of waiting for the government to "save" them, the better off they'll be. If the government does happen to throw them a bone, that'll just be the icing on the cake.

I think this is ass backwards. Trying to make people change a system that is actively trying to fuck them as hard as it can. It is the reason communism doesn't work. Sure Bob and Sue might decide they can't afford college, but, if everyone else keeps feeding the system they have condemned their careers to $10 an hour. Which yeah its liveable, but, I wouldn't want to live on that. Seriously I give props to the lower eschalon of working class people struggling to survive, but, there has to be a better way.

[TigerEyes]

To roughly quote fight club. We have been raised to think we are going to be ceo's and princesses. The degree is seen as the magical vehicle to get there. Trying to say, "Well Timmy you should go into the work force after highschool because Mom and Dad can't afford to send you to college because they together make 60000 which is too much to get anything but a loan" is going to get most people to roll their eyes at you.

Are you saying it's a...BAD thing to admit when you can't afford something, and try to find a way to work around it so you either find an alternative or you find a way where you CAN afford it?

And because you mentioned "Fight Club"... =P

I think this is ass backwards. Trying to make people change a system that is actively trying to fuck them as hard as it can. It is the reason communism doesn't work. Sure Bob and Sue might decide they can't afford college, but, if everyone else keeps feeding the system they have condemned their careers to $10 an hour. Which yeah its liveable, but, I wouldn't want to live on that. Seriously I give props to the lower eschalon of working class people struggling to survive, but, there has to be a better way.

I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm all about the practical solutions. As in, "What can I do, right now, to change my situation for the better?" Waiting for a Utopian government to come in and fix everything isn't very likely to happen. Ever. Personally, I feel that the more people are personally empowered, the sooner we'll start seeing changes in the educational structure. As I said before, colleges are businesses, and we are the paying customers. If we, as the paying customers, start demanding better options, or start realizing that "Hey, maybe I DO have other options besides college!" and side-stepping it altogether, the sooner the system will change to meet our needs in order to get us to be their paying customers again. As it is right NOW, colleges think they can do whatever the fuck they want because they're essentially perceived as a monopoly. If that perception changes in our society, I think that little by little, the system will change to accommodate it.

Also, this isn't communism. It's capitalism.

This post has been edited by TigerEyes: Mar 20 2012, 06:56 PM

[Arc Baltic]

Are you saying it's a...BAD thing to admit when you can't afford something, and try to find a way to work around it so you either find an alternative or you find a way where you CAN afford it?

I am saying that people are going to respond to the no can't do it poorly. It is ingrained into us that we are going to be gods among men from an early age. The degree the magical ticket.

I'm not saying I disagree, but I'm all about the practical solutions. As in, "What can I do, right now, to change my situation for the better?" Waiting for a Utopian government to come in and fix everything isn't very likely to happen. Ever. Personally, I feel that the more people are personally empowered, the sooner we'll start seeing changes in the educational structure. As I said before, colleges are businesses, and we are the paying customers. If we, as the paying customers, start demanding better options, or start realizing that "Hey, maybe I DO have other options besides college!" and side-stepping it altogether, the sooner the system will change to meet our needs in order to get us to be their paying customers again. As it is right NOW, colleges think they can do whatever the fuck they want because they're essentially perceived as a monopoly. If that perception changes in our society, I think that little by little, the system will change to accommodate it.

The problem is you are fighting an entrenched system. You need a massive number of people to be bucking the system. The system (how people get jobs) supports this parasite. People's success (the Romney definition of success) purely is based on getting that good paying job. By not going to college your odds of becoming "successful" is rather limited. No one is going to be the first to say no. You need large numbers. You won't get that many people willing to say fuck you to the system. A body that has power over all the major players is going to need to be what steps in. That will be our federal government.

Also, this isn't communism. It's capitalism.

You missed the comparison. You need all parties to potentially limit their futures for their collective good. It ain't going to happen.

[TigerEyes]

I am saying that people are going to respond to the no can't do it poorly. It is ingrained into us that we are going to be gods among men from an early age. The degree the magical ticket.

I think I already said in my first post that I agreed this is a terrible mindset that needs to be changed, so, moving on...

The problem is you are fighting an entrenched system. You need a massive number of people to be bucking the system. The system (how people get jobs) supports this parasite. People's success (the Romney definition of success) purely is based on getting that good paying job. By not going to college your odds of becoming "successful" is rather limited. No one is going to be the first to say no. You need large numbers. You won't get that many people willing to say fuck you to the system. A body that has power over all the major players is going to need to be what steps in. That will be our federal government.

You missed the comparison. You need all parties to potentially limit their futures for their collective good. It ain't going to happen.

Personally, I really don't care about Romney's, or anyone else's, definition of success. I care about my own definition of success. I think it's a bad mindset to get into where you think you have to have certain, predetermined things before you can consider yourself successful. "Keeping up with the Jones's" and all that. Second of all, you're still operating under the assumption that college is 100% necessary in order to have a high income, when I've already given examples that show this is not actually how real life works. Depending on your field, it may be required you have special licenses (doctors, lawyers, etc.), but for everybody else where it's not an absolute requirement, there are most definitely ways to work around not having a college degree. A college degree is not a magical golden ticket. A college degree, like anything else, is just a tool that can benefit you should you choose to use it well. If you don't choose to use this particular tool, there ARE others at your disposal.

This post has been edited by TigerEyes: Mar 20 2012, 07:41 PM

[Arc Baltic]

I think I already said in my first post that I agreed this is a terrible mindset that needs to be changed, so, moving on...

Yeah, but you aren't going to change something indoctrinated into several generations very easily...

Personally, I really don't care about Romney's, or anyone else's, definition of success. I care about my own definition of success. I think it's a bad mindset to get into where you think you have to have certain, predetermined things before you can consider yourself successful. "Keeping up with the Jones's" and all that. Second of all, you're still operating under the assumption that college is 100% necessary in order to have a high income, when I've already given examples that show this is not actually how real life works. Depending on your field, it may be required you have special licenses (doctors, lawyers, etc.), but for everybody else where it's not an absolute requirement, there are most definitely ways to work around not having a college degree. A college degree is not a magical golden ticket. A college degree, like anything else, is just a tool that can benefit you should you choose to use it well. If you don't choose to use this particular tool, there ARE others at your disposal.

Being rich is how society defines success, but, that really wasn't the major point. Your second point is missing what I am saying. People got this mentality generated. A person is smart enough to understand your point. People are dumb. They are panicky animals trying to get their best future. They are told get a degree. They will not drop out of the rat race purely for fear that they will get no cheese.

There is merit to this belief. A degree gets you a lot of tools you might not have. Good luck with a law/medical/science/math/engineering/computing career without a college education. Most of the best paying careers are wrapped up into education. Not every degree will pay for itself or is required, but, a lot of our advanced jobs require them...

Anyways my point is that trying to get society to change itself is a slow, painful process, that will sooner implode than have any semblance of grace.

[Dr. O]

Personally, I really don't care about Romney's, or anyone else's, definition of success. I care about my own definition of success. I think it's a bad mindset to get into where you think you have to have certain, predetermined things before you can consider yourself successful.

I wish more people thought like this. So much of the problem with college isn't even economic; it's cultural, because we now have generations of people thinking that its the key to having a fulfilling life, economic security, or whatever else they want. I don't have any idea how that would change, though, since it seems to be part of the consumerist mindset. People think money = success, which isn't something that can be legislated away with loan reform.

[Arc Baltic]

Also for the record I am not disagreeing that money != success. I am saying it is bred into everyone and good luck fighting that battle.

[The Two-One-Five]

Says the guy stationed in allied nations.

because I clearly have a 100% say on being where I am today, right? faggot

Also, no, money does not equal success. Stabvility is all that's required to be succesful. And, honestly, if money is all you want, then going to college isn't the answer. The first industrialist weren't educated, they just had a hard work ethic and common fucking sense. Shit, Microsft was started by a college dropout. A degree in financial management won't put you at the top, it'll just put yu next to them serving them coffee and delivering their mail.

[Shmeckie]

because I clearly have a 100% say on being where I am today, right? faggot

For the big military man who calls people bitch, nancy, and faggot, you're thin-skinned as all hell. Shall I elaborate?

"But I don't want to go to war." Well then quite being a bitch, nancy.

...says the guy who's never seen actual combat, and probably never will.

Now quit acting like you're some hardened warrior and go back to flirting with foreign jailbait.

[Arc Baltic]

This was edited because Shmeckie has a tiny penis. Go Shmeckie.

This post has been edited by Arc Baltic: Mar 22 2012, 02:11 PM

Reason for edit: Someone forgot the magic rule. Also, of all people to defend...

[The Two-One-Five]

For the big military man who calls people bitch, nancy, and faggot, you're thin-skinned as all hell. Shall I elaborate?

comming from the guy who takes every political argument to a personal level.

...says the guy who's never seen actual combat, and probably never will.

Now quit acting like you're some hardened warrior and go back to flirting with foreign jailbait.

I know plenty of people who've been out in country and none of them have seen shit. One of my childhood buddies is a machine gunner, been deployed twice, and the most action he saw was his 7- ton malfunctioning. But it's okay, Shmeckie knows what it's all about with years as nerd rage pilling up, more then likely brought by years of supressing asexuality.

[Shmeckie]

I've never taken anything personally. I'm just mean. Unlike you, however, I'm delightfully charming about it. Hence why people like me, and have running gags at your expense, "Private Pyle."

Though really? Calling me a nerd as a comeback? I'm disappointed. What is this, second grade? Tell ya what; if you want to pretend to be an alpha male so bad, continue this little dickwave through PMs to me, which I will promptly ignore, and let's not shit up the thread any further. Now, if you'd like to go pretending that military combat--which you have never seen, by the way--is no big deal and everyone should just enlist and deal with the possibility of a life-threatening situation they're not capable of handling just to get a free ride into college or whatever-the-fuck, then go right ahead and keep playing Make-Believe Warrior King. Just don't start getting pouty with the schoolyard comebacks when you're called out on it.

Also your last comeback made no sense.

Now, back to discussing the uselessness of college and Arc's friends' inexplicable inability to pay a monthly bill.

This post has been edited by Shmeckie: Mar 21 2012, 10:14 PM

[Master of AFTER]

Also, no, money does not equal success. Stabvility is all that's required to be succesful. And, honestly, if money is all you want, then going to college isn't the answer. The first industrialist weren't educated, they just had a hard work ethic and common fucking sense. Shit, Microsft was started by a college dropout. A degree in financial management won't put you at the top, it'll just put yu next to them serving them coffee and delivering their mail.

Damn, 215. I was this close to congratulating you on finally contributing someone positive and insightful to a thread, but your subsequent posts just steamrolled the value of this one. So close...

But you know, I think all the chest-pounding and dick-waving in the last page of thread serves to illustrate an important point about the appeal of a college education in our society. The promise of money and power makes a degree alluring, of course, but neither of those things are guaranteed—a fact which is becoming more and more apparent these days, even among the people deluded enough to buy into that dubious assurance that they'll be rewarded with an extra million dollars if they have that sacred piece of paper hanging in a frame on the wall of their cubicle. More than the promise of wealth and prosperity, I think the pursuit of a degree has taken its place in our culture as a right of passage into adulthood; a ritual through which the lowly student may blossom into a erudite businessperson, ready to take that final step out of the shelter of the academic encampment and face the outside world armed with the tools they need to forge a life for themselves. A degree is important not because of where it will take an individual, but because it tells everyone they come into contact with where they've been and what they've conquered.

As pack animals, we human beings are born into the world with an instinctual drive to prove ourselves as worthy of being members of a competitive society. At the innermost core of our subconscious lurks an ever-present fear of being weak and useless, because we all know—even when we don't—that weakness and uselessness inevitably precede separation from a society that determines every member's worth based on their perceived value to the sustained existence of that society. We lust for power only because we believe it will remove that fear of being deemed unworthy of being allowed to interact with our peers as equals. The real basis for our fear isn't frailty or vulnerability; it's loneliness.

To stand there on graduation day and receive a scroll inscribed with proof of one's accomplishments in a system that judges performance is to receive that most sought-after treasure: approval. As children, our psychological health is dependant on receiving sufficient praise from our parents; as adults, it depends on receiving acceptance from society. Our minds crave that acceptance as desperately as our bodies crave oxygen, and there is no price, however unreasonable, we won't pay in order to achieve the emotional wellbeing that comes with doing what we think everyone in the world is telling us we should.

[Agnitio Ex Machina]

215, we don't live in a fascist society. Students should not have to join the military to get funding for a civilian-exclusive job, although I personally encourage it. Still though, it should not be forced on anyone since, as I said, we don't live in a land of conscription during times of peace (meaning no actual combat with any other real nations).

Also, it should be noted that not everyone is cut-out to be in the military. The blind and deaf, for example.

This post has been edited by Agnitio Ex Machina: Mar 22 2012, 07:49 AM

[Dr. O]

Service guarantees citizenship!

[The Two-One-Five]

Damn, 215. I was this close to congratulating you on finally contributing someone positive and insightful to a thread, but your subsequent posts just steamrolled the value of this one. So close...

Well I do try, boss.

Also, I'm not advocating the draft (nor will I ever endorce it) but I guarantee you that most people bitching about student loans are capable of serving in the military, especially seeing as the airforce is ran more like a business than a modern military. And the only reason I bring up the military is that when I told someone that maybe they should do that for college money it was like a shock that someone would suggest they put an effort into something in their lives for something they want or, god forbid, give their lives for something greater than themselves.. I mean, I fucking hate the free-ride wanting pansies who refuse to work for anything and want shit handed to them. If they start getting what they bitch for they'll then demand jobs be created for their useless degrees even if society has no use for them. I mean, I'm still busting my ass and putting up with a bunch of bullshit and misery and I still don't rate the GI bill. I've been to college and I know a lot of assholes who only do so to party all the while majoring in something easy so they remain elligable for financial aid. Fuck them, they deserve to pay every cent back. man, I've seen more dicks with my two eyes than the collective eyes of this community and i don't rate student loan forgiveness yet. Fuck this generation of self-loving entitled fuckhead who live of the smell of their own farts and demand everyone love their shitstains.

[Agnitio Ex Machina]

Well I do try, boss.

Also, I'm not advocating the draft (nor will I ever endorce it) but I guarantee you that most people bitching about student loans are capable of serving in the military, especially seeing as the airforce is ran more like a business than a modern military.

Still, not everyone is capable of doing it, as you said. Also, boot camp might be a bit much for some people, even if the airforce is being "ran like a buisness" because there's no real war for them to get involved with. There's also the matter of the hippies and those I wouldn't trust with a gun.

And the only reason I bring up the military is that when I told someone that maybe they should do that for college money it was like a shock that someone would suggest they put an effort into something in their lives for something they want or, god forbid, give their lives for something greater than themselves.. I mean, I fucking hate the free-ride wanting pansies who refuse to work for anything and want shit handed to them.

I agree with you there. The American youth has been spoiled for too long. Blame the yuppies and Generation X.

If they start getting what they bitch for they'll then demand jobs be created for their useless degrees even if society has no use for them. I mean, I'm still busting my ass and putting up with a bunch of bullshit and misery and I still don't rate the GI bill.

Which is why it's not for everyone. There are too many lazy people that would just fuck-off and end-up getting discharged or lack the maturity to serve. Exactly what happens during a conscription.

I've been to college and I know a lot of assholes who only do so to party all the while majoring in something easy so they remain elligable for financial aid. Fuck them, they deserve to pay every cent back.

Financial aid exploitation is a huge problem and it contributes to budgets being cut severely like in California. There needs to be reform in regards to this, though. It's too easy for some jerkoff to get financial aid and then run with the money or not put in the college investment needed.

man, I've seen more dicks with my two eyes than the collective eyes of this community and i don't rate student loan forgiveness yet. Fuck this generation of self-loving entitled fuckhead who live of the smell of their own farts and demand everyone love their shitstains.

The main problem with this is that the SLF Act has nothing to do with those currently enrolled in college and those who recently graduated. There are those who have graduated long ago and still can't pay off their loans because of ridiculously high interest rates. They're making their contribution to society and yet they still live with the burden of what helped them to get to that point.