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> TV Tropes is dead to me., Fucking DEAD to me.
Post #1641
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 11:19 AM
QUOTE (Agnitio Ex Machina @ Dec 8 2013, 11:00 AM) *
Well fuck, maybe we can finally have a good site of tropes after all this time. Just try to make sure your users do not devolve into a circlejerk, as I believe that was one of the reasons FE fucked-up his administering.


One of the things we are doing to prevent this is avoiding two three things we felt crippled TV Tropes:

1. No ads or external pressure on content quality - The Orain wiki farm is a donation only service (and Wikia picks up the tab for the Tropes Mirror Wiki), and the administration of both wiki farms have given their blessing on our site goals under reasonable limits (basically, no porn).

The only ones who we are effectively answerable to would be ourselves, but we try to be mindful of keeping things from descending into the gutter and of what is legally permissible.

2. We do NOT have a "Happiness Is Mandatory" policy - While we encourage tropers to be civil and polite, we don't have a TV Tropes styled HIM policy, as that led to the censoring of many things that crippled honest criticism of certain works, not to mention criticism of our management style (I and my fellow administrators have far thicker skins than Fast Eddie in that regard), and we make a point of allowing reasonable criticism to flourish so long as it isn't just hateful bashing of a work or other people.

3. We do not have a policy of treating tropers like second class citizens. Wikia has an admin policy I adore, which goes something like:

"Admins are caretakers of a wiki with access to a few extra features to keep site operation smooth"

Basically, as admins, I and my associates feel we shouldn't bite the newbies (a Wikipedia policy I like), not punish people for arbitrary or nit-picky reasons, and if we are going to make major decisions, we will discuss them with the community and make reasonable attempts to inform them beforehand.


I'm open to any other suggestions, but the above were what I and the guys who set up ATT had in mind from the very start.


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Post #1642
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post Dec 8 2013, 11:24 AM
Oh hi Geth N7(Whatever happened to Geth N6?). You've brought up some really interesting material and I can definitely say that I like the cut of your jib.

This recent news about fast Eddie is both hilarious and not surprising in the least.

Dude's a fucking dickless, sniveling crybaby with an ego to rival that of Kim Jong Il, with the morals to match.

Can you drop us a link to any further outside source documenting these events? because shit sounds hilarious.

It's like that time an SA goon found out Fast Eddie stores all the passwords on TV Tropes in an unencrypted text file, including his own.

This post has been edited by Bonglorio: Dec 8 2013, 11:27 AM


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Post #1643
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post Dec 8 2013, 11:25 AM
I think you should have advertising available in order to maintain your website, unless you wanna register it as a non-profit. If advertisers have a problem with the site's content, then just let them go. This is an issue with traditional journalism: the firewall between advertisers and editorials.


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Post #1644
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post Dec 8 2013, 11:37 AM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 8 2013, 09:06 PM) *
Okay, troping works like Kodomo No Jikan and Pokegirls may be disgusting or offensive to some, but we are of the stance they are works of fiction just like King Lear and Citizen Kane, and thus deserve to be mentioned and discussed.

Here's the thing though: Pokegirls is very obviously NOT like King Lear and Citizen Kane. I'm not even talking about the fact that it's an ungodly piece of shit, I'm referring to the fact that Pokegirls is fanfiction. The same thing pretty much applies to every other fanfiction/fan work-thing that gets it's own page on TV Tropes. Why do these exist? Shit like this or this or THIS only seem to exist to perpetuate a circlejerk about the thing in question. At least Kodomo no Jikan is an actual anime and therefore worthy of a page. Which brings me to my next point...

QUOTE
Granted, we don't like the idea of those works being turned into creepy gush centers by perverts, which we will hopefully not have happen, but regardless of their literary merits (or lack thereof), I (and my associates) are big on the freedom to discuss works of fiction, so long as the discussion is legal (if not exactly moral) to discuss.

The reason we loathe pages like the one about Kodomo no Jikan so much is because they are so often written in a way that is intentionally disingenuous, so that whatever repulsive content the thing has (in this case blatant pedophilia) gets "excused". Taste is one thing, but claiming spank-off garbage like Highschool of the Dead has some sort of deep plot and isn't just fanservice bullshit is straight-up lying.

QUOTE
At the same time, I'm open to suggestions as to how we could avoid that on the TMW or ATT.

I think a policy of honesty would be good. Meaning, unlike TV Tropes who claim that they're objective and then blatantly lie and try to hype up shows for scumbags so that they don't look bad for liking them, you shouldn't allow that sort of thing. You don't need to say that the show sucks or anything, but blatantly dishonest garbage like "this show is totally not just pedophile-shit/fanservice-shit/badly written with shallow characters" shouldn't fly.


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Post #1645
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post Dec 8 2013, 11:39 AM
Generally, I don't think that discussion of any particular work should be banned out of hand. The reason it doesn't work on TV Tropes is because of that site's anti-criticism policy, which in turn compounds a bunch of other problems. Like, say, attracting people who enjoy Pokegirls by giving them an outlet to talk about it and then ostracizing normal people by attacking them for being uncomfortable with this. That and Fast Eddie's ham-handed, control freak approach to running things, which is how Lolita got deleted but lolicon was treated much more leniently.

But you're aware of that and are trying to avoid it, so I hope it works out for you. The idea behind TV Tropes is good and I'd like for there to be a site like does the same thing but without all the baggage it's picked up over time.


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Post #1646
Agnitio Ex Machina


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post Dec 8 2013, 11:45 AM
I'm on board with the 'no fanfiction' school. Or it should at least be vetted in order so that only quality fanfiction gets its own page. Of course, this policy can be changed once there's enough content of traditional fiction. You want to build-up your community with literary people, not the type of people you'd see in our Let's Laugh At Freaks topic.


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Post #1647
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 11:48 AM
QUOTE (Bonglorio @ Dec 8 2013, 11:24 AM) *
Oh hi Geth N7(Whatever happened to Geth N6?). You've brought up some really interesting material and I can definitely say that I like the cut of your jib.

This recent news about fast Eddie is both hilarious and not surprising in the least.

Dude's a fucking dickless, sniveling crybaby with an ego to rival that of Kim Jong Il, with the morals to match.

Can you drop us a link to any further outside source documenting these events? because shit sounds hilarious.

It's like that time an SA goon found out Fast Eddie stores all the passwords on TV Tropes in an unencrypted text file, including his own.


Well, most of the stuff documenting drama specific to us or TV Tropes in general is on ED here:

https://encyclopediadramatica.es/TV_Tropes_...NGER_APPEARS.21

https://encyclopediadramatica.es/Fast_Eddie

https://encyclopediadramatica.es/PmWiki


I find the last page particularly hilarious and infuriating since I have (A) used PmWiki myself and (B) I'm one of the guys who has to take what we were (badly, despite our best efforts) able to convert to MediaWiki and then modify it to not look like crap.


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Post #1648
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 11:59 AM
QUOTE (Max-Vader @ Dec 8 2013, 11:37 AM) *
Here's the thing though: Pokegirls is very obviously NOT like King Lear and Citizen Kane. I'm not even talking about the fact that it's an ungodly piece of shit, I'm referring to the fact that Pokegirls is fanfiction. The same thing pretty much applies to every other fanfiction/fan work-thing that gets it's own page on TV Tropes. Why do these exist? Shit like this or this or THIS only seem to exist to perpetuate a circlejerk about the thing in question. At least Kodomo no Jikan is an actual anime and therefore worthy of a page. Which brings me to my next point...


The reason we loathe pages like the one about Kodomo no Jikan so much is because they are so often written in a way that is intentionally disingenuous, so that whatever repulsive content the thing has (in this case blatant pedophilia) gets "excused". Taste is one thing, but claiming spank-off garbage like Highschool of the Dead has some sort of deep plot and isn't just fanservice bullshit is straight-up lying.


I think a policy of honesty would be good. Meaning, unlike TV Tropes who claim that they're objective and then blatantly lie and try to hype up shows for scumbags so that they don't look bad for liking them, you shouldn't allow that sort of thing. You don't need to say that the show sucks or anything, but blatantly dishonest garbage like "this show is totally not just pedophile-shit/fanservice-shit/badly written with shallow characters" shouldn't fly.


I agree that TV Tropes has a major problem with sugarcoating everything, which we will hopefully avoid, and I too find it disingenuous to claim something High School Of The Dead is something other than fanservice with zombies (I've seen it, and it's basically a shameless fanservice show with a zombie apocalypse plot as a backdrop, and the manga isn't much better) or that Pokegirls is a great work of literature (it's a pornified Pokemon fanfic with a somewhat elaborate backstory used to justify the porn, but I wouldn't call it an awesome work of literary prowess by any measure).

As for hosting tons of pages on fanfics, I'm well aware a lot of them are terrible, and some pages to terrible fanfiction are horrid circlejerks that are sugarcoated to hell and back, and while I'm not exactly sure how to set decent criteria for page creation/inclusion, I'm a believer in that the pages should mention the objective qualities of a work, warts and all, instead of being puff sheets that sugarcoat their flaws.


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Post #1649
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 12:07 PM
QUOTE (Agnitio Ex Machina @ Dec 8 2013, 11:45 AM) *
I'm on board with the 'no fanfiction' school. Or it should at least be vetted in order so that only quality fanfiction gets its own page. Of course, this policy can be changed once there's enough content of traditional fiction. You want to build-up your community with literary people, not the type of people you'd see in our Let's Laugh At Freaks topic.


While I sympathize in the extreme, I not sure how this sort of thing would be set up to allow for adequate quality control.

I do have to say, though, I'm not a fan of the "Unpublished Works" section on TV Tropes, which I think is little more than a dumping ground for crap that will most likely never happen. I also don't like how TV Tropes excised the Horrible Fanfiction pages, which I found informative regarding the fanfiction that utterly sucked and should be allowed as a place where bad fanfics can be savaged for their crimes against literature and good taste.

QUOTE (Dr. O @ Dec 8 2013, 11:39 AM) *
Generally, I don't think that discussion of any particular work should be banned out of hand. The reason it doesn't work on TV Tropes is because of that site's anti-criticism policy, which in turn compounds a bunch of other problems. Like, say, attracting people who enjoy Pokegirls by giving them an outlet to talk about it and then ostracizing normal people by attacking them for being uncomfortable with this. That and Fast Eddie's ham-handed, control freak approach to running things, which is how Lolita got deleted but lolicon was treated much more leniently.

But you're aware of that and are trying to avoid it, so I hope it works out for you. The idea behind TV Tropes is good and I'd like for there to be a site like does the same thing but without all the baggage it's picked up over time.


I agree the anti-criticism policy is a horrible blight on TV Tropes that stifles legitimate complaints of a work, and while we currently don't have a review system set up for certain works (we're still working out the technical means of setting that up), we do not have policy on forcing people to NOT post legitimate criticism if a work warrants it and do not plan to discourage legit criticism.


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Post #1650
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post Dec 8 2013, 12:21 PM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 8 2013, 01:07 PM) *
I do have to say, though, I'm not a fan of the "Unpublished Works" section on TV Tropes, which I think is little more than a dumping ground for crap that will most likely never happen. I also don't like how TV Tropes excised the Horrible Fanfiction pages, which I found informative regarding the fanfiction that utterly sucked and should be allowed as a place where bad fanfics can be savaged for their crimes against literature and good taste.


That reminds me-even if it's going to be very hard to actually enforce, you need to have a "No one can edit the tropes page of anything they had a hand in making." rule.
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Post #1651
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 12:25 PM
QUOTE (Coiler @ Dec 8 2013, 12:21 PM) *
That reminds me-even if it's going to be very hard to actually enforce, you need to have a "No one can edit the tropes page of anything they had a hand in making." rule.


I can understand the reasoning behind that line of thought, but what should we do in cases where their edits are inoffensive or helpful, such as clarifying statements on story elements not clear to the readers (Word Of God) or if they are adding objectively verifiable information, or even doing copy-editing to improve grammar?

In those cases, I would be disinclined to bar them from editing the page, since those edits are beneficial.


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Post #1652
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post Dec 8 2013, 12:46 PM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 8 2013, 01:25 PM) *
I can understand the reasoning behind that line of thought, but what should we do in cases where their edits are inoffensive or helpful, such as clarifying statements on story elements not clear to the readers (Word Of God) or if they are adding objectively verifiable information, or even doing copy-editing to improve grammar?

In those cases, I would be disinclined to bar them from editing the page, since those edits are beneficial.


I'd offer letting them make their case on discussion pages as a compromise.

Basically, I've seen too many authors go hog-wild on their trope pages, and one really bad example where the author deleted any trope that seemed critical even from the YMMV page. Not only is this bad for the tropes page, it's also bad for the story, since far too many fanfic writers make their stories to include as many "tropes" as possible, so they can pad out the page.
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Post #1653
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post Dec 8 2013, 12:58 PM
QUOTE (Coiler @ Dec 8 2013, 12:46 PM) *
I'd offer letting them make their case on discussion pages as a compromise.

Basically, I've seen too many authors go hog-wild on their trope pages, and one really bad example where the author deleted any trope that seemed critical even from the YMMV page. Not only is this bad for the tropes page, it's also bad for the story, since far too many fanfic writers make their stories to include as many "tropes" as possible, so they can pad out the page.


That's a good idea, but I'd would only find that feasible if the edits were obvious creator wankery regarding the work (admittedly, that might be hard to discern in some cases), in which case I would pull the creator aside onto the talk page.

Deleting YMMV criticism by the creator would obviously be not allowed, though they could always make their case on the talk page, and they would have to agree to live with it if the decision is not in favor of their position.

As for padding out the page with tropes, it might be a good idea to include a guideline they have to specify how the trope applies to the story in advance, unless it's self evident (for instance, a story whose general content is about a Zombie Apocalypse would obviously need no elaboration about the Zombie Apocalypse trope, unless it's being used in a way that requires elaboration).


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Post #1654
Al_Cone


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post Dec 8 2013, 01:33 PM
I like this guy. Anybody else like this guy? I like this guy.

However, I'd like to suggest that you either wait for another person to post after you, or edit your original post with new information in response to somebody else, rather than posting multiple times in a row. smile.gif As for suggestions on how to improve TV Tropes, I think imposing some sort of mandatory conversation filter when it comes to sexual depravity or disturbingly off the beaten path opinions would do wonders. Nobody wants to hear about your diaper fetishes, tropers, nor do we want to know why you think vaginas are lairs of death and despair.


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Post #1655
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post Dec 8 2013, 01:54 PM
Damn, I like this dude! Good head on his shoulders, and I like that you're trying to create a version of TV Tropes that takes out the stupid bullshit. I'd like to see a return of the TV Tropes of old, which used to be a dangerously fascinating read.

As for suggestions for ways to fix things, I think the guys outlined some great points already, but I do have a few.

- If it's discovered that an author of a work (i.e. webcomic, freeware game) is updating the tropes page of their own work, they should be banned from editing, and possibly have their changes/additions/contributions to the page deleted.

- Enforce a policy of justification to avoid oversaturating a page with tropes that are a stretch at best. That means no adding "Magnificent Bastard" to a character's list of tropes just because they're a bad guy that won once or twice. Also if a trope must apply to either the work as a whole, or if it refers to a single scene/example, it must be a pure, textbook example of the trope. This would avoid using tropes to sperg over a series/game/whatever simply by finding the flimsiest connection so they can prattle on about individual scenes. Hell, this would probably cut the My Little Pony tropes page by about 3/4.

- No tropes pages for fanfictions unless they are well known, familiar to people outside the fanfiction community, or otherwise have some larger merit. For instance, fanfics like Fourty H's, My Immortal, Shinji's Nightmare Cataclysm, etc. would be fine. These are (in)famous fics whose recognition makes them worth cataloging. The same goes for freeware games and web series (i.e. Abridged Series). We don't need a TV Tropes page for every single god damn abridged series. The big ones like Y-Gi-Oh and DBZ Abridged are fine, but every rinky-dink gag dub by some kid with a microphone and Windows Movie Maker does not warrant a tropes page.

- Eliminate tropes that aren't tropes, but are instead used to further catalog information about pointless shit by people with blatant autism. "The Abridged Series" is not a trope, for instance. Many "tropes" on that site are not tropes at all, but are instead possible occurrences in and out of the work. Although I understand it is far too ingrained in the site's lexicon to get rid of, things like Word of God/Word of Solomon (or whatever) are examples of this. Basically it shouldn't be there if it's not an actual trope.

- I understand the Crowning Moment of _____ pages, Nightmare Fuel, etc. I get the purpose, I get that they're SUPPOSED to refer to a crescendo in the narrative where a particular emotional reaction is sought after in a big way for a single scene/moment (the former), and moments when entertainment made for younger audiences, or not made to be scary, has a scene that is accidentally "creepy," or scary to children (the latter), but these pages need to be HEAVILY regulated to reduce the sperging, and fix the reputation TV Tropes has. Users should be encouraged to purge these pages if it seems like they're just adding any scene that merits little more than a tepid "hooray" or "oh, cool"; scenes are simply dark or otherwise unfriendly looking; scenes of characters just being nice, or having a nice moment being cataloged as "heartwarming; etc.

- Regulate and purge "gushing." A page should not read like a fansite. Here's a few examples of what I'm talking about...
QUOTE ("Evangelion")
What starts off as a relatively standard Humongous Mecha premise, over the course of the series, gradually transforms into a dramatic character study rife with psychological analysis, religious references, genre deconstruction, social commentary, and exploration of themes such as societal alienation, depression, and the repressive pain of human subjectivity.

You can argue a few of these solely on the basis that it's what the show is going for, but this is obviously a padded list made to make the show appear like more of a work of importance than it is. And the FLCL page is one of the worst offenders (aside from a goliath that is the MLP:FiM page), with shit like...
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[adult swim] has stated numerous times that of all the anime the network has ever aired, it considers FLCL as its favorite.

This doesn't belong in a show's introductory paragraph, and may be outdated information (the bumps in question that stated this haven't been aired in years, and we don't know if this is the opinion of whoever at Williams Street writes the bumps, and if it even still applies.
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Crazy Awesome: Everyone and everything, but especially Haruko.

No tropes page should have an entry that reads like this. This is blatant gushing.
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This Is Your Premise on Drugs: The show does have its share of batshit insanity. And like a drug trip, you can find some nuggets of true brilliance while your housekeeper with a chainsaw engine powered guitar and robot that popped out of your head join you magic adventures.

First of all "This is your premise on drugs" is an example of a non-trope that needs to go. Second, this is, again, blatant gushing and masturbatory praise. As much as I'll say all day long that there's nothing even resembling "brilliance" in FLCL, that's not the only issue with an entry like this. I wouldn't even go on about "brilliance" in an entry for Cowboy fucking Bebop.
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Pure fanwank.

That's all that comes to mind for now, but let me just say you, sir, are a welcome breath of fresh air, and a pleasant surprise.

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Post #1656
Geth N7


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post Dec 8 2013, 02:42 PM
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Dec 8 2013, 01:33 PM) *
I like this guy. Anybody else like this guy? I like this guy.

However, I'd like to suggest that you either wait for another person to post after you, or edit your original post with new information in response to somebody else, rather than posting multiple times in a row. smile.gif As for suggestions on how to improve TV Tropes, I think imposing some sort of mandatory conversation filter when it comes to sexual depravity or disturbingly off the beaten path opinions would do wonders. Nobody wants to hear about your diaper fetishes, tropers, nor do we want to know why you think vaginas are lairs of death and despair.


Thanks you for the advice on posting. smile.gif

As for preventing creepy discussion on diaper fetishes and the horrors of the vagina (seriously, what kind of deranged mind posts that sort of crap?), we already don't have fora on wiki for discussing that sort of thing (they are limited to technical, wiki specific matters only).

As for the wiki itself, discussion pages will only be for discussing problems with pages. We do NOT want Troper Tales or fetish fuel to be mentioned, and gushy crap about sex or whatever else gets anyone off will be utterly verboten anywhere. The actual pages should only contain objective fact, and the YMMV pages or any other page area designated for opinoniated material will have creepy, pervy material removed.

Basically, we will be eliminating any creepy perverted first person stuff that is obviously a troper's personal opinion and discouraging the posting of such content as much as possible, or such is the current policy we operate on.


QUOTE (Shmeckie @ Dec 8 2013, 01:54 PM) *
Damn, I like this dude! Good head on his shoulders, and I like that you're trying to create a version of TV Tropes that takes out the stupid bullshit. I'd like to see a return of the TV Tropes of old, which used to be a dangerously fascinating read.

As for suggestions for ways to fix things, I think the guys outlined some great points already, but I do have a few.

- If it's discovered that an author of a work (i.e. webcomic, freeware game) is updating the tropes page of their own work, they should be banned from editing, and possibly have their changes/additions/contributions to the page deleted.

- Enforce a policy of justification to avoid oversaturating a page with tropes that are a stretch at best. That means no adding "Magnificent Bastard" to a character's list of tropes just because they're a bad guy that won once or twice. Also if a trope must apply to either the work as a whole, or if it refers to a single scene/example, it must be a pure, textbook example of the trope. This would avoid using tropes to sperg over a series/game/whatever simply by finding the flimsiest connection so they can prattle on about individual scenes. Hell, this would probably cut the My Little Pony tropes page by about 3/4.

- No tropes pages for fanfictions unless they are well known, familiar to people outside the fanfiction community, or otherwise have some larger merit. For instance, fanfics like Fourty H's, My Immortal, Shinji's Nightmare Cataclysm, etc. would be fine. These are (in)famous fics whose recognition makes them worth cataloging. The same goes for freeware games and web series (i.e. Abridged Series). We don't need a TV Tropes page for every single god damn abridged series. The big ones like Y-Gi-Oh and DBZ Abridged are fine, but every rinky-dink gag dub by some kid with a microphone and Windows Movie Maker does not warrant a tropes page.

- Eliminate tropes that aren't tropes, but are instead used to further catalog information about pointless shit by people with blatant autism. "The Abridged Series" is not a trope, for instance. Many "tropes" on that site are not tropes at all, but are instead possible occurrences in and out of the work. Although I understand it is far too ingrained in the site's lexicon to get rid of, things like Word of God/Word of Solomon (or whatever) are examples of this. Basically it shouldn't be there if it's not an actual trope.

- I understand the Crowning Moment of _____ pages, Nightmare Fuel, etc. I get the purpose, I get that they're SUPPOSED to refer to a crescendo in the narrative where a particular emotional reaction is sought after in a big way for a single scene/moment (the former), and moments when entertainment made for younger audiences, or not made to be scary, has a scene that is accidentally "creepy," or scary to children (the latter), but these pages need to be HEAVILY regulated to reduce the sperging, and fix the reputation TV Tropes has. Users should be encouraged to purge these pages if it seems like they're just adding any scene that merits little more than a tepid "hooray" or "oh, cool"; scenes are simply dark or otherwise unfriendly looking; scenes of characters just being nice, or having a nice moment being cataloged as "heartwarming; etc.

- Regulate and purge "gushing." A page should not read like a fansite. Here's a few examples of what I'm talking about...

You can argue a few of these solely on the basis that it's what the show is going for, but this is obviously a padded list made to make the show appear like more of a work of importance than it is. And the FLCL page is one of the worst offenders (aside from a goliath that is the MLP:FiM page), with shit like...

This doesn't belong in a show's introductory paragraph, and may be outdated information (the bumps in question that stated this haven't been aired in years, and we don't know if this is the opinion of whoever at Williams Street writes the bumps, and if it even still applies.

No tropes page should have an entry that reads like this. This is blatant gushing.

First of all "This is your premise on drugs" is an example of a non-trope that needs to go. Second, this is, again, blatant gushing and masturbatory praise. As much as I'll say all day long that there's nothing even resembling "brilliance" in FLCL, that's not the only issue with an entry like this. I wouldn't even go on about "brilliance" in an entry for Cowboy fucking Bebop.

Pure fanwank.

That's all that comes to mind for now, but let me just say you, sir, are a welcome breath of fresh air, and a pleasant surprise.


- If it's discovered that an author of a work (i.e. webcomic, freeware game) is updating the tropes page of their own work, they should be banned from editing, and possibly have their changes/additions/contributions to the page deleted.

I'm, not sure I'd like to castigate every author of a work who does this, especially if the edits are of the beneficial, non partisan variety, but if they are just there to turn the page(s) into a shill that eliminates all negative opinions or objective criticism, that seems like a reasonable policy. I personally favor the compromise approach of letting them suggest changes on the talk page if said changes are of the controversial variety, but that would only apply if the creator is willing to be reasonable. If not, then this seems like a good idea.


- Enforce a policy of justification to avoid oversaturating a page with tropes that are a stretch at best. That means no adding "Magnificent Bastard" to a character's list of tropes just because they're a bad guy that won once or twice. Also if a trope must apply to either the work as a whole, or if it refers to a single scene/example, it must be a pure, textbook example of the trope. This would avoid using tropes to sperg over a series/game/whatever simply by finding the flimsiest connection so they can prattle on about individual scenes. Hell, this would probably cut the My Little Pony tropes page by about 3/4.


Magnificent Bastard is a trope that doesn't belong anywhere but YMMV pages anyway, and the way I see it, while I despise how draconian the TVT Zero Content Examples policy is (hey, if a heroic character has an X shaped scar, then mentioning the "X Marks The Hero" trope doesn't need elaborating on unless it has some extra significance), your point is duly noted on how tropes should have meaningful context, and I too think using them as fan wank is ridiculous.

- No tropes pages for fanfictions unless they are well known, familiar to people outside the fanfiction community, or otherwise have some larger merit. For instance, fanfics like Fourty H's, My Immortal, Shinji's Nightmare Cataclysm, etc. would be fine. These are (in)famous fics whose recognition makes them worth cataloging. The same goes for freeware games and web series (i.e. Abridged Series). We don't need a TV Tropes page for every single god damn abridged series. The big ones like Y-Gi-Oh and DBZ Abridged are fine, but every rinky-dink gag dub by some kid with a microphone and Windows Movie Maker does not warrant a tropes page.

I must confess I'm not entirely sanguine on the idea of applying notability standards to fanfics due to that being a slippery slope, since a work's notability is one of those "eye of the beholder" concepts, but I would be in favor of allowing a section of the site like the Horrible Fanfiction pages to allow for the castigation of works that are undeniably terrible, and while I agree a lot of the amateur stuff may not be very notable or just not a very worthwhile addition to the site, I'm not sure how we could filter them for quality in the way you advise without coming off as restrictive as TV Tropes is, just in a different
manner.


- Eliminate tropes that aren't tropes, but are instead used to further catalog information about pointless shit by people with blatant autism. "The Abridged Series" is not a trope, for instance. Many "tropes" on that site are not tropes at all, but are instead possible occurrences in and out of the work. Although I understand it is far too ingrained in the site's lexicon to get rid of, things like Word of God/Word of Solomon (or whatever) are examples of this. Basically it shouldn't be there if it's not an actual [i]trope
.[/i]

This is something I'm somewhat torn on. I agree some pages are somewhat pointless like the example you mentioned, but at the same time, the trope "Word Of God" strikes me as a meaningful trope since it refers to the creator (or "god", if you will) of a work rendering official statements regarding the work, which can have a bearing on more notable works (like Harry Potter for instance). However, The Abridged Series does strike me as trivia at best, and should probably be relegated to the Trivia section. In fact, many of the alleged tropes that more accurate fall under Trivia I wouldn't utterly remove, but you make an excellent point about how they are "trivial", and thus items that fall under that category should probably be moved to their own section with a clear designation they aren't actual tropes and shouldn't be used on trope pages.

- I understand the Crowning Moment of _____ pages, Nightmare Fuel, etc. I get the purpose, I get that they're SUPPOSED to refer to a crescendo in the narrative where a particular emotional reaction is sought after in a big way for a single scene/moment (the former), and moments when entertainment made for younger audiences, or not made to be scary, has a scene that is accidentally "creepy," or scary to children (the latter), but these pages need to be HEAVILY regulated to reduce the sperging, and fix the reputation TV Tropes has. Users should be encouraged to purge these pages if it seems like they're just adding any scene that merits little more than a tepid "hooray" or "oh, cool"; scenes are simply dark or otherwise unfriendly looking; scenes of characters just being nice, or having a nice moment being cataloged as "heartwarming; etc.

I agree in principle, and to be honest we haven't really ironed out most of the policy we plan to have for these pages yet, but I can agree that every little scene does not need to be mentioned. For instance:

Hero in action series beats the crap out of a villain: not CMOA worthy. (that's kinda his job by design anyway)

Hero in action series beats the crap out of a villain with one arm while on fire and manages to survive the encounter: Fits CMOA criteria somewhat better.

- Regulate and purge "gushing." A page should not read like a fansite. Here's a few examples of what I'm talking about...

You can argue a few of these solely on the basis that it's what the show is going for, but this is obviously a padded list made to make the show appear like more of a work of importance than it is. And the FLCL page is one of the worst offenders (aside from a goliath that is the MLP:FiM page), with shit like...

This doesn't belong in a show's introductory paragraph, and may be outdated information (the bumps in question that stated this haven't been aired in years, and we don't know if this is the opinion of whoever at Williams Street writes the bumps, and if it even still applies.

No tropes page should have an entry that reads like this. This is blatant gushing.

First of all "This is your premise on drugs" is an example of a non-trope that needs to go. Second, this is, again, blatant gushing and masturbatory praise. As much as I'll say all day long that there's nothing even resembling "brilliance" in FLCL, that's not the only issue with an entry like this. I wouldn't even go on about "brilliance" in an entry for Cowboy fucking Bebop.

Pure fanwank.


I can agree with this. "Just the facts" is my idea for main work pages, gushing should only go in areas it is designed for, and that should have higher standards than just mentioning every little thing.

"This is your premise on drugs" always struck me a trivia item at best anyway, and if kept, it could stay in its own little ghetto for trivia, but I agree it probably doesn't belong on pages as a trope.


In summation, I don't believe we could eliminate fanwank entirely, though the suggestions you've offered do sound sensible for setting a reasonable standard for what would apply as worthy of inclusion in the areas one is allowed to fan wank in, and at least that way we could keep it contained in its own area (trying to suppress it entirely would probably backfire in some way), and by reinstating areas where negativity and criticism could be discussed (instead of ramming that "no negativity crap" down everyone's throat), I believe it might be possible to provide a decent counterbalance to the gushy stuff.

That's all that comes to mind for now, but let me just say you, sir, are a welcome breath of fresh air, and a pleasant surprise.

Thank you. smile.gif Your suggestions are very interesting, and I will seriously consider them as we iron out our policies further.


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post Dec 8 2013, 03:12 PM
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Best of luck to ya, my man!


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post Dec 8 2013, 03:17 PM
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post Dec 9 2013, 01:35 AM
Good to have you with us, Geth N7. You've somewhat restored my faith in the idea that a professional and legitimately useful catalog of popular trends and archetypes in media is possible under the right management. I wish you and your associates the very best of luck in your endeavors.

For the record, I can empathize with your struggle as a leader of a creativity-driven community to achieve a balance of encouraging civility and professionalism among the people you manage while still allowing them the freedom to express their ideas openly. At the risk of sounding a little pompous, I think the stress involved in holding such a position for any length of time is far greater than most people realize.


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post Dec 9 2013, 07:22 AM
QUOTE (Master of AFTER @ Dec 9 2013, 01:35 AM) *
Good to have you with us, Geth N7. You've somewhat restored my faith in the idea that a professional and legitimately useful catalog of popular trends and archetypes in media is possible under the right management. I wish you and your associates the very best of luck in your endeavors.

For the record, I can empathize with your struggle as a leader of a creativity-driven community to achieve a balance of encouraging civility and professionalism among the people you manage while still allowing them the freedom to express their ideas openly. At the risk of sounding a little pompous, I think the stress involved in holding such a position for any length of time is far greater than most people realize.



Actually, that's a fair point concerning how stressful this can be.

To be utterly honest, I was frankly a little terrified of being the front runner of a project of this nature awhile back, mostly because I was nervous about all the backlash I'd get from detractors, TV Tropes doing its best to shut us down via copyright issues, and whether I had the technical or personal competence to maintain a project of this nature.

And that's why I'd like to mention why I feel TV Tropes is a tainted project with Fast Eddie as it's leader:

- Fast Eddie is terrified of criticism, apparently because he feels TV Tropes is an extension of his ego. The mere idea anyone would dare make a spinoff of his website was so worthy of hatred from him I have been demonized as a troll despite my best efforts to show him good faith. Further, he cannot tolerate communities like yourselves, Something Awful, and other writing communities long aggravated with him and his site, no matter how legitimate it might be.

By contrast, I have no other personal stake in what I'm doing aside from wanting to give people an alternative to TV Tropes. I make no money off this project nor wish to, and Wikia picks up the tab for the Tropes Mirror Wiki and Orain's staff plus some very generous donators from the leaders of ATT keep the Orain fork going, so I have no financial concerns. I also have almost no worries about having to censor myself on either the Wikia fork and even less concern in that regard on ATT, so I do not have compromise our website content integrity in the name of our financial sponsors, which in both Wikia and Orain's cases have been extremely lenient, for which I am quite grateful.

- On both Wikia and All The Tropes, a conscious decision was made to use content explicitly available under Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 3.0 because I have no objection to anyone profiting off our work, since I make no money off of it myself nor plan to. For legal and practical reasons, the bulk of the content we might use is available under those terms, so it seemed the most logical license to use.

Also, I have to admit I was dubious of the Noncommercial version of the license material because, according to my reading of Creative Commons, Fast Eddie's sudden change of the license was applied to his own site with no warning and the creators who originally supplied their work under CC BY SA 3.0 were given no choice in the matter, which seems to be of very dubious legality under CC guidelines, since the creators must be able to give their consent to submitting their work under the license specified by the website in question. Wikipedia made a very public effort to obtain the community's ability to submit under both the GDFL and CC BY SA 3.0 and obtained permission from the appropriate parties to uses both licenses, and after much consultation with Vorticity (which did most of the research concerning the legality), we opted to play it safe since we are still not sure if the license change effected by Fast Eddie ever was legal.

- As for whether I have the technical or personal competence to run the projects I am engaged in now, I use MediaWiki, which is a long tested, stable wiki engine with active development and which I have much more experience with than PmWiki, and both Wikia and Orain's staff and community have been gracious enough to lend their technical assistance when I needed it, which I'm very grateful for. I'm not the world most skilled PHP coder nor a MW expert, nor claim to be, and I openly admit I'm willing to accept the help of those with more MW experience than I. I also do my best to be as laid back and willing to work with a team as possible because I am leery of "admin fiat" decision making, not to mention I believe power corrupts, so I explicitly have asked people on Wikia and ATT to be my conscience, since I have no desire to wield the level of power Fast Eddie has over his site, nor do I want to.

By contrast, Fast Eddie uses PmWiki, which I have used and find to be a horribly inefficient wiki system by contrast, and when Fast Eddie dies, the rest of the TV Tropes staff will probably be unable to continue the site in his stead due to how customized his build of PmWiki has become and their own admitted limited competence with that wiki engine.

He has also used his power to enforce many policies over his own site without community support or discussion and has forcibly expelled anyone critical of his administration or who he perceives to be his enemy. By contrast, I have no desire to alienate my own community and have far less ego to bruise, and since I have personally been harshly regarded by Fast Eddie, I have no stomach for inflicting that on anyone else.


I also wanted to add a personal note concerning my being here on this forum and discussing these matters with all of you:

TV Tropes seems to hold its detractors in contempt and refuses to give their views a chance to be heard, but I decided to come here with the intention of better understanding your POV so that I might come away with a better understanding of how you feel TV Tropes has failed with the intent to do a better job, not to mention I'm a firm believer in the civil solicitation of differing points of view, and while not everything said here I agree with, this community has still made many valid points I can find merit in, and our policies (which we have been adding to as we keep cleaning things up) have already been amended slightly based on recommendations from this fora.

You all have my thanks for receiving me as nicely as you have, and happy holidays to you all. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Geth N7: Dec 9 2013, 08:10 AM


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