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> TV Tropes is dead to me., Fucking DEAD to me.
Post #1661
Professor Pineapple


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post Dec 9 2013, 07:38 AM
And happy holidays to you as well, fine sir! May you find luck in whatever endeavor you undertake, and may you succeed in making a wiki far superior to TvTropes.


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Post #1662
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post Dec 9 2013, 01:15 PM
Geth, you're a good egg, and I wish you luck in building a site that'll certainly be replacing TV Tropes for everyone here.


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Post #1663
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post Dec 9 2013, 05:31 PM
Let me jump on the bandwagon by saying I like this guy.

Geth, I like you. You're cool.

I hope your new site leaves Fast Eddie's empire of shit in the dust.

We're pulling for ya, little guy.




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Post #1664
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post Dec 11 2013, 09:10 AM
Let me add my two cents here by saying good luck to ya, Geth. You're an amazing person.


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Post #1665
Geth N7


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post Dec 11 2013, 10:17 AM
QUOTE (shiroamasa @ Dec 11 2013, 09:10 AM) *
Let me add my two cents here by saying good luck to ya, Geth. You're an amazing person.


blush.gif Well, thank you.

Anyway, since this is the TV Tropes is dead to me topic, just wanted to add a few more things on why it's dead to me.


- TV Tropes is hostile to reproducing their work elsewhere - Even though their work was freely licensed under Creative Commons Attribution ShareAlike 3.0 all the way up until July 2012, it seems Fast Eddie hit the ceiling when Vorticity (my co-founder, who converted all the material from June 2012 from PmWiki to MediaWiki with his Perl code skillz) decided to spider their content so it could then be reused elsewhere under the terms of their own CC license. (which is legal to do, BTW)

He (and a few others) were banned, he was accused of attempting a DDoS attack on TV Tropes, and then the content was soon after relicensed under harder to reuse terms, apparently just to make it's reuse harder.

Not only do we find that legally dubious, we both agree that is a really dick move, and we plan to stick with a CC BY SA 3.0 license with our content, and if anyone wants to rehost that content elsewhere, including for commercial purposes, we don't care, just please follow CC BY 3A 3.0 rules when you do, if only to avoid any copyright complaints later.


- We are firm believers in open source - Despite using an open source wiki engine like PmWiki, Fast Eddie has refused to release any information on how it works to anyone and has customized it to the point that when he dies, TV Tropes will likely die since no one will be able to fix anything that breaks.

We use MediaWiki, and we cooperatively develop any custom extensions we may need with the Orain wiki farm service, which is also open source, so if you wanted to take our content and host it elsewhere using the same custom setup we do, just spider our wiki content, then use the custom extensions from the Orain Github that we use to duplicate how things work on ATT. In fact, here's Orain's github account:

https://github.com/Orain


- Contacting TV Tropes and asking questions is not very easy to do - Unless you have an account, you can only ask questions through one email address for the TVT staff, and from what I understand, getting answers on anything substantive is very difficult.

By contrast, we maintain a firm open door policy, so you can find contact information for our staff here:

https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/All_The...opes:Contact_us

I and Vorticity (labster on IRC) hang out on IRC quite a bit, so you can ask us questions in real time on our own IRC channel:

https://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/ATT_IRC_Channel


P.S. - I've been reading a few other topics on this forum, was planning to contribute to other places besides this thread when I'm not as busy with ATT related matters and the holidays.

This post has been edited by Geth N7: Dec 11 2013, 10:18 AM


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Post #1666
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post Dec 15 2013, 12:42 AM
After browsing a few tvtropes articles, I think the first thing you need to do with your site is ban the phrase "Oh so much."

Seriously, I'm pretty sure at least one trope is followed by that on 90% of their articles.


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Post #1667
Geth N7


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post Dec 15 2013, 04:31 AM
QUOTE (Viashino_wizard @ Dec 15 2013, 12:42 AM) *
After browsing a few tvtropes articles, I think the first thing you need to do with your site is ban the phrase "Oh so much."

Seriously, I'm pretty sure at least one trope is followed by that on 90% of their articles.


I'm not sure we could ban it outright (I noticed that too, seems to be a tired troper meme like "So Yeah" used to be), but we do have a policy of encouraging good descriptions (and I agree that's a poor way to enhance a description), so I'll take that under advisement and make sure our policies are clear on what should constitute good page description.

My fellow administrator Vorticity has been doing the bulk of our policy writing, but I do consult with him frequently about our policies (and we do consult our own community as well, which has a more academic focus that would agree with your sentiments), so I'll make sure to let him know we need to have that spelled out ASAP.


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Post #1668
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post Dec 15 2013, 07:16 AM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 15 2013, 04:31 AM) *
I'm not sure we could ban it outright (I noticed that too, seems to be a tired troper meme like "So Yeah" used to be), but we do have a policy of encouraging good descriptions (and I agree that's a poor way to enhance a description), so I'll take that under advisement and make sure our policies are clear on what should constitute good page description.

My fellow administrator Vorticity has been doing the bulk of our policy writing, but I do consult with him frequently about our policies (and we do consult our own community as well, which has a more academic focus that would agree with your sentiments), so I'll make sure to let him know we need to have that spelled out ASAP.


Also, try to gently discourage them from saying "Picture this" or "Imagine that you're _____". That phrase comes up way too often (though it's usually in subjective pages like Nightmare Fuel).


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QUOTE (theabhorrentatrocity @ Aug 15 2015, 02:25 PM) *
daddy longleg spiders are scary as they're one of the most poisonous spiders so not much of an over reaction.


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Post #1669
Geth N7


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post Dec 15 2013, 12:34 PM
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Dec 15 2013, 07:16 AM) *
Also, try to gently discourage them from saying "Picture this" or "Imagine that you're _____". That phrase comes up way too often (though it's usually in subjective pages like Nightmare Fuel).


I've always been of the opinion those phrases are a bad way to let something like nightmare fuel be described, since once you describe it, the person who reads the description can let their minds draw up the mental images.

On a related topic, since you guys have a lot of good suggestions, I'd like to invite you to share them at the following locations:

https://allthetropes.orain.org/w/index.php?...=20131213140817

This is our on-wiki "Wiki Talk" board, where matters concerning the wiki (like policy) can be discussed. Feel free to join up, drop by, and leave your suggestions.

We also have a planning thread on the below forums for our wiki at:

http://drunkardswalkforums.yuku.com/topic/...Project-Part-II

Feel free to join up (it's free, Bob will have to sign off on your account, but he's a nice guy) and submit your ideas. That thread is where we discuss tech updates and policy decisions that could affect everyone, and if you guys feel you have something to add, please, don't be shy in adding your two cents.

FYI, a few people from there heard of the criticism from this board and were nervous about approaching the PA forums to see what your criticism was about, but I decided to show up here, as an ambassador if you will, and not only was my coming here a fruitful decision, I asked the members of the DW forums to keep an open mind concerning the views of this board, and show all of you the courtesy and respect we've shown each other.


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Post #1670
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post Dec 16 2013, 08:47 AM
Affiliation time? Sometime? Maybe?



Whatever.


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Post #1671
Geth N7


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post Dec 20 2013, 01:45 PM
Okay, bit of an update concerning the Tropes Mirror Wiki on Wikia:

It seems Anime Addict came back to the Tropes Mirror Wiki to resume administrating (even though I have adopted the wiki, he still retains his administrator powers) and basically had a few problems with how I was doing things in his absence, and since some of his ideas struck me as ridiculous (and things that you guys may concur with), I figured I'd share:

1. He wants the YMMV pages reintegrated back into the main pages - This I flatly disagree with. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) stuff usually causes flame wars and is basically tropes that are based on opinion, and I'd rather confine that stuff to it's own ghetto to contain any edit warring instead of having to lock entire main work pages because people can't stop edit warring.

2. He hates the blue color scheme I chose - He had this frankly ugly purple scheme going for the longest time, and blue was easier on the eyes. He hates blue because it's so generic, so this is just a nitpicky personal taste gripe of his that no one else seems to have an issue with.

3. He hates the fact I've made the site similar to the Orain based All The Tropes - even though I did this so both sites are free to exchange content between each other with a minimum of problems, he's convinced this is just making the Wikia version more bland or something.

4. And his big thing: he hates the fact we no longer host Troper Tales and wants them restored.

He's one of those types who wanted to restore everything deleted by Fast Eddie because he hates censorship, and fine, I understand that, but on that subject, I don't think those should have been brought back.

For one, sites like this one, Something Awful, and a lot of others have mocked the hell out of them for having disgusting, creepy content, and after reading some of them, I can't say that mocking was undeserved. In fact, I felt the urge to vomit after reading the Troper Tales/Brother Sister Incest page.

Also, keeping those pages from staying out of the gutter is frankly a task that would need round the clock supervision, and since that isn't practical, I didn't want to deal with them.

Finally, while we elected to get rid of them on the Orain fork even though they wouldn't have necessarily been a violation of their site terms there, Wikia doesn't like the hosting of porn or creepy shit, and I asked them to look over the content, explained why I didn't want it, and if they agreed, I asked them to remove it.

Wikia themselves purged it and even removed the Troper Tales Wikia fork, and I'm glad they did.

However, he's still upset about this even though Wikia did the mass deletions and thinks I'm as bad as Fast Eddie.

I asked him to gather a consensus of opinion on whether the other people who edit there think that my changes were bad (it's unlikely at best he could get that if you ask me), and even Wikia advised I do that (as opposed to us admin warring over this, which I don't want), and I will reconsider my opinions if a consensus against my changes can be reached, but honestly, I stand by most of my changes (#2 is something I think we could work on without too much trouble).


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Post #1672
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post Dec 20 2013, 02:10 PM
My lord... what an idiot!
Though with a name like Anime Addict that's to be expected...



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Post #1673
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post Dec 20 2013, 02:15 PM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 20 2013, 11:45 PM) *
1. He wants the YMMV pages reintegrated back into the main pages

Bad idea, for reasons you already outlined.

QUOTE
2. He hates the blue color scheme I chose

Since this is a quite minor issue, I'm sure you'll come to an agreement on that.

QUOTE
3. He hates the fact I've made the site similar to the Orain based All The Tropes

*shrug* I got nothing.

QUOTE
4. And his big thing: he hates the fact we no longer host Troper Tales and wants them restored.

No. NO. FUCKING NO. Troper Tales serve no function other than to allow the skidmarks of humanity to show how ridiculously fucking aspergian they are.

If he makes a suggestion like that, I seriously have to ask if this man should be given any amount of power.


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Post #1674
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post Dec 20 2013, 02:24 PM
QUOTE (Geth N7 @ Dec 20 2013, 03:45 PM) *
It seems Anime Addict came back to the Tropes Mirror Wiki to resume administrating (even though I have adopted the wiki, he still retains his administrator powers) and basically had a few problems with how I was doing things in his absence, and since some of his ideas struck me as ridiculous (and things that you guys may concur with), I figured I'd share:

Why does he want any of those things? If this guy wants the Mirror Wiki to be more like TV Tropes, then why doesn't he just browse TV Tropes? Or, I don't know, contribute to this site. Troper Tales got taken down for a reason and there's no way anything good can come from restoring it. And if he's so opposed to censorship, then you'd think he'd like having a separate YMMV page, since people aren't going to be as likely to get into arguments and edit wars in an explicitly subjective section. A lot of those subjective tropes probably shouldn't exist at all, but at least they aren't hurting anything as long as they're kept off the main pages.

This post has been edited by Dr. O: Dec 20 2013, 02:26 PM


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Post #1675
Geth N7


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post Dec 20 2013, 02:34 PM
QUOTE (Max-Vader @ Dec 20 2013, 02:15 PM) *
No. NO. FUCKING NO. Troper Tales serve no function other than to allow the skidmarks of humanity to show how ridiculously fucking aspergian they are.

If he makes a suggestion like that, I seriously have to ask if this man should be given any amount of power.


I agree wholeheartedly. Troper Tales and worse, Fetish Fuel (I've had all this purged as well, again with Wikia's blessing) deserved to get double tapped in the head and thrown in an unmarked grave.

However, the only reason Anime Addict still has power is because all he's done is complain. Until he vandalizes or tries to restore this content, I can't do anything and Wikia won't remove his rights, but Wikia has basically told him he either needs to get a consensus of opinion on whether what I've done is bad or get over it.

I don't think he'll get anyone to side with him and I think he's pretty much gotten the hint that he has very little pull at this point, so I don't think this is going to be a problem anytime soon, but while I'm still willing to work with him on the other stuff, my foot remains down on the topic of ever attempting to bring back Troper Tales/Fetish Fuel.

Also, something else you guys may find interesting: While we briefly had the Troper Tales on All The Tropes (they we dumped and converted along with the other stuff we could find into one massive database dump when we first started up), I immediately wanted to watch them die, and a lot of other people on the DW forums agreed they were more trouble then they were worth and voted for their immediate deletion.

Vorticity was reluctant ever so briefly to kill them all off because he was hoping some of the more inoffensive ones might be savable, but barely managed to attempt cleaning up five or six pages of spergy natter and fucked up shit before even he said "okay, that's it, this stuff is beyond redemption, let's kill it".

As for Fetish Fuel, no one thought that insanity was worth bringing back from the dead.


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Post #1676
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post Dec 26 2013, 10:31 PM
TV Tropes has made a Memetic Badass page for their own site, I shit you not.

Most of it's just about Fictional characters that would be better off in Pages of media they actually come from but some make "Facts" if you would about themselves and the site.

For example.

QUOTE
•TV Tropes eats wikis for breakfast. And its WMG actually alters both canon and reality. In a really drastic way.

Is the site kooool yet gais? Gais where are you going?
QUOTE
◦ Within the wiki, The Advertisement Server is the world's greatest Deadpan Snarker. It even has its own page for celebrating its greatness.

I have nothing, the page on the The Advertisement Server.....I have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
QUOTE
◦ Do not invoke the wrath of Fast Eddie.

And of course one for Fast Eddie. I bet the shithead made that bit himself as a little monument to his ego.


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Don't you get it? If we take all the physically attractive fictional characters and make them hideous, society might lower its standards of beauty enough that all the basement-dwelling human blobs with bad skin will be able to leave their parents' houses without everyone shrieking in terror as they race to the nearest church to repent for their sins.


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Their downfalls were brought about by a bad reaction.
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Post #1677
Geth N7


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post Dec 28 2013, 09:11 AM
Ladies and gentlemen, it seems the insanity of some people refusing to see why Troper Tales was such a bad idea refuses to end:

http://tropes.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:38923

In this thread, someone gives me some spiel about how the TMW is just as bad as TVT in the censorship department, and while I've stated (and stand by my opinion) all tropes and works with tropes deserve to be covered, I have no desire to bring back Troper Tales (at least not on any wiki I have any say on, other people can wade into that shark pit if they want), and while I was told by Wikia they would reconsider allowing the more "inoffensive" pages back, I have already provided Wikia with as much information as possible as to why Troper Tales is a Pandora's Box of depravity, and I'm not doing squat unless I'm forced to, and even then, I'd rather ask they reopen the Wikia fork of the TT wiki and let the disgruntled people do what they gotta do there than have anything to do with that BS myself.

Also: http://tropes.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:29982

In this post, I asked Wikia to remove the Troper Tales, and they concurred, by the same troper complaining about their removal wants them restored, creepy or not, and I did my best not to scream as I explained why Wikia approved of their deletion.

Honestly, that shit is horrible and does not deserve to brought back from the grave IMO, but it seems nothing lives longer than a bad idea, and I plan to do everything in my power to keep the Troper Tales as dead as possible on the TMW.


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Post #1678
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post Jan 3 2014, 02:33 PM
Ah Geth N7, your project has intrigued me very much and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors!

QUOTE
4. And his big thing: he hates the fact we no longer host Troper Tales and wants them restored.
Anime Addict just needs to learn those heart-warming in-depth stories of a troper riddled with autism beating off to such great anime like Aku no Hana, Dance Of The Vampire Bund and Kill La Kill.


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Post #1679
Geth N7


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post Jan 3 2014, 07:56 PM
QUOTE (Matto @ Jan 3 2014, 02:33 PM) *
Ah Geth N7, your project has intrigued me very much and I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors!

Anime Addict just needs to learn those heart-warming in-depth stories of a troper riddled with autism beating off to such great anime like Aku no Hana, Dance Of The Vampire Bund and Kill La Kill.


Appreciate that. Both our Orain based fork and the Wikia mirror are doing fairly decently at this point, and I'm glad you wish the best for us.

Thing is, concerning AA's wanting to retain Troper Tales his logic boils down to "You need to take them in, good and bad, no matter what". Basically, he just hates deletionism of any kind on personal principle (I sympathize, but some things just aren't worth saving IMO), but he seems to have decided fighting the issue was pointless.

On a related note, after talking with Wikia, I posted a thread basically telling anyone who really wanted to Troper Tale again that I'll provide all the troper tales dumped by Fast Eddie himself and a converter tool if they really much jump into the hellhole that was TT on their own wiki (without any official support by me otherwise), and Wikia agreed that (A) that was a reasonable compromise and (B) if someone did that, they would keep an eagle eye on content and murder it again (if someone restarted that on Wikia) with extreme prejudice the second it got out of hand.

No one has picked up the gauntlet yet. (Thank God)


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Post #1680
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post Jan 15 2014, 09:26 AM


In other news, Tropers continue to think that storytelling is like Lego blocks.

Also, the Writer's Block forum is a goldmine of ineptitude and awful:

QUOTE
I have an idea for a story, and I’m having a bit of trouble walking one particular tightrope. I want the protagonist to be: 1) a slave-owner from a slave-owning culture, 2) not any more progressive than the rest of his culture, and 3) sympathetic.

Now, obviously, for this to work I’m going to have to make the form of slavery one of the milder forms, while still making it clear that the character’s values are fundamentally different from our own. What I’ve decided on his more or less this: There are two major Empires on this continent, in an on-again-off-again war. Since they have such a monopoly on various resources, they need to trade. For the outlying provinces this is no big deal, but for the wealthier areas it would be seen as “unseemly” to trade with the enemy. So for several centuries they’ve “haven’t gotten around” to conquering a number of independent cities in the Southern part of the continent (think Italy, basically), and they both trade with these cities, and thus indirectly with each other. This allowed these cities to be very lacking in conflict (basically, their wealth is in trade not conquest, so they don’t fight each other, for fear of causing one or both of the Empires to step in to protect their own ports of trade. They deal with all of their competitive needs through dangerous competitions. On top of that they’ve become the home of some major universities, leading to a lot more free-thinking). Because of this, they’re a fairly progressive society, to the point where a whole new religion was developed, and was able to talk over the government of all of them (this religion is considered bleed-hearted as hell everywhere else).

Now, how does this deal with slavery? Basically, one of the tenants of the religion is that while not everyone is equal, everyone has some basic rights, and slave owners have to respect that. So, whenever a slave owner acquires a slave he’s required to recite an oath in the temple which goes more or less as follows:

He/she will have food, water, and air as I do (not to say the same amount, the point is if you have some, you can’t let them starve) I shall shed no blood, break no bones through malicious intent (note that these two don’t forbid physical punishment, just limit it. Furthermore, they mean you’re not responsible for accidents, and if you kill a slave in self-defense you’ve done nothing wrong).

I should also mention that there are other regulations not explicitly stated in the law, that are still assumed to apply. One of the main ones being that there’s a festival every year in which every slave must be presented publicly, so that he or she can make any accusations of crimes against his or her master (if a slave can’t attend due to infirmary or travel, a public servant will meet privately with them at a suitable time). Also, certain slaves with extraordinary talents (specifically in the arts) can get the State to buy them from their Master, at which point they’re indentured to the city until they work off their debt, and are then free (the “debt” is kind of vaguely defined, though, and realistically it means “your kids go free, and you’ll get to retire with a decent pension”).

But, this still leaves a lot of questions. I have some prospective answers, but I’d still like it if people could present me with other possibilities:

-The first issue is surprise sex. I feel like making it illegal to have sex with your slaves against their will would be going too far (although I decided that sex with children is a grave offense in their religion), but at the same time I feel like this is something that can’t be accepted. What I’ve considered is making it more of a taboo than forbidden, and making certain things likewise expected from the slave. Basically, a Master theoretically can force sex, but its frowned upon, and he’ll be ostracized. However, he can forbid a slave from seeing someone he/she loves, and the slave is expected to tolerate a certain level of behavior that might otherwise be regarded as creepy (basically, if he likes you he can spend his entire life trying to seduce you if he wants).

-The next issue, obviously, is the children of slaves. I’m thinking it would be going too far in the sympathetic direction to just make them free…but, at the same time, there’ve been plenty of cultures in which the children of slaves have been born free.

-Trading with the two Empires (which don’t have such regard for slaves). I can see where this would get complicated, particularly if a citizen of one of the two cities traveled with slaves outside it. My thinking on this is that its forbidden for a “citizen” of their State (regardless of where he or she is) to sell to a non-citizen (barring citizens of one of the other cities).

Any other suggestions on how to work this?


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If you can imagine a sympathetic feudal lord, you can also do so with a slaveholder. In many parts of the world, the difference between 'serf' and 'slave' was largely a question of semantics for a long, long time. In many ways, an ancient roman slave was actually better off than a peasant somewhere in medieval germany.


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I thought I should give you guys some introduction to how the story starts off:

Basically, the main character is participating in my fantasy version of the Kula Ring. During major storms young noblemen from the cities (I think I've decided there are two, but I may add a third, but I'd have to figure out how they're positioned geographically) try to swim across a straight with nothing but short pants, a knife in their mouth (their are small kraken, no more than 10-feet long, in the straight), and a shell necklace around their neck. Basically, they have several partners in the city across the straight, and they try to bring the necklace to one of the partners, whose waiting for them on the other side. The idea is that the more times the necklace has been given (the real Kula ring involves sailing canoes and exchanging bracelets for necklaces, but it doesn't need to be exact), the more prestige you get. And when you give the necklace, you're expected to receive a gift of some value in exchange (as in monetary or useful value, not just honor).

Basically, the protagonist is given a female slave, who he's told has basically been shipped in from the newest territory one of the two Empires is in the process of conquering (they've expanded beyond the main continent). He basically intended her as a novelty thing, since her ethnicity of slave is relatively new as a major market.

I'm still working on some details (like why he would bother getting to know her, given that he already has dozens of slaves).

(btw, one more concern I'm still holding is that I feel a bit like Rape Is a Special Kind of Evil is too much of a modern value, but at the same time I know that past cultures have made rapists outlaws)

Yeah, I think I know two major factors that would interest him in her: the first is he'd be interested in learning about another culture.

The second is that they're both practitioners of different types of magic. Basically, I want to emphasize that "magic" in this world is just stuff that people don't understand, and so different types of magic don't necessarily function on the same rules or principles. In his case, and in the case of many other learned people, he can manipulate natural forces in small amounts by willpower (usually this is enough to light a candle). She's more skilled in dealing with spirits, who can't affect anything physically, but can affect people mentally. Other types (the REALLY dangerous stuff) involve artifice or runes, and only a few experts can really do it so that its remotely functional.


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"Sympathetic slave owner" is no different from "sympathetic dog owner". If you can wrap your head around that, you'll be good to go.


And tropers are still scum of the Earth.






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[9:09:06 PM] Soren Highwind: Please don't make me a dick cannibal shane.

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[11:45:16 PM] Scream: i have become one with the slug
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Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 25th March 2017 - 01:43 AM