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> Game of Thrones, Incest, backstabbing and more!
Post #61
LordYAM


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post Jun 8 2015, 12:19 PM
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Jun 8 2015, 12:27 PM) *
I'm no purist. Adaptations need to change shit in order to make it work; not everything translates well from one medium to the next. I understand that. It's not unreasonable, though, to want those changes to make sense. And to at least retain some semblance of the source material's meaning.

Collapsing all three Tyrell sons into Loras? Okay, that could cause problems down the line, but it's not inherently bad. Fine. Turning Loras into a stereotypical flaming homosexual who likes fashion and dreaming about weddings and loves casual sex with pretty boys? Because "gay" isn't just an aspect of his character; it has to be his entire identity? That's fucked up.

Turning Sansa from a young woman slowly regaining her independence at the cost of her identity into Ramsay Bolton's fuck puppet? And, in the process, making her storyline ancillary to Ramsay Bolton's? Who, let's not pretend otherwise, is by now the central character in the Winterfell story arc? That's beyond fucked up.

Turning Stannis Baratheon from an honorable and just man who views being king as a duty, not a privilege, into a pyromaniac who's driven by--and this is a direct quote from the fucking showrunners--ambition? That's a betrayal of the character. That is turning him into something he isn't supposed to be.

The farther and farther they drift from the books, the stupider the show gets. Characters don't behave in any logical, reasonable manner. Shit just happens because the story needs to get from point A to point B somehow. They follow the beats of Martin's story without taking the time to consider the context behind those beats.

Who cares if it makes sense? The writers don't. You apparently don't.



http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefu...rones-debunked/


Here's one feminists take on the sansa rape scene. I'm willing to see how the rest of winter fell plays out

But another problem is that dance and feast were kinda slow and disjointed. My dad liked the first three but grew annoyed with the later two (also doesn't help that grrm turned it in three months before publication).

Aside from the fist scene the walkers aren't in the later books much. The night kings intro set the stage for the shows final battle in that we meet the guy and see a show of force. You get the sense the show is building up to a final showdown against the night King and Jon snow.
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Post #62
Al_Cone


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post Jun 8 2015, 01:56 PM
QUOTE (LordYAM @ Jun 8 2015, 01:19 PM) *
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/05/all-hopefu...rones-debunked/

Here's one feminists take on the sansa rape scene. I'm willing to see how the rest of winter fell plays out


"One feminist"'s arguments are so patronizing and smug that they make me shit my pants with vicarious chagrin. Not to mention, they ignore a lot of valid complaints about the scene and cast the ones she doesn't ignore in a simplistic, reductive light. No thank you.

QUOTE
But another problem is that dance and feast were kinda slow and disjointed. My dad liked the first three but grew annoyed with the later two (also doesn't help that grrm turned it in three months before publication).


"Slow," yes, but not disjointed. Nor would I go as far as to say that the slow pace of those books was to their detriment. Feast/Dance wraps up many of the loose plot threads from the previous books while advancing other storylines which are critical to the overarching narrative. Much of which, fyi, has been mangled by the adaptation. We've covered the events in the North, but Dany's arc has been oversimplified to the point where it can best be summarized as "Dany struggles to rule and then flies off on a dragon" while cutting out all of the nuance and context behind everything that happens. Who was the leader of the Sons of the Harpy, if not Hizdahr lo Zoloft Lorax the Fifth of His Nubile Name? 'Cuz he fuckin' died. They fuckin' killed his ass.

And Dorne--what even? What even is happening with Dorne?

Anyway, I agree that the slower, more deliberate pacing of the latter two books (Feast, especially) would require some tinkering for the TV adaptation, since a slower, more deliberate pace doesn't lend itself well to a ten episode season. Their tinkering sucked, though, and the show is worse for it.

QUOTE
Aside from the fist scene the walkers aren't in the later books much. The night kings intro set the stage for the shows final battle in that we meet the guy and see a show of force. You get the sense the show is building up to a final showdown against the night King and Jon snow.


The Night's Watch storyline is all about Jon being out of sorts and isolated while struggling to reconcile his role as an objective non-participant in the events south of the wall and his Stark-like sense of duty to his family and his country. It's about him sending away his friends and allies while simultaneously alienating the people he needs to win over, which has a lot of negative consequences for him in the long run. It's not supposed to be about Jon Snow fighting Darth Maul. A Song of Ice and Fire is not Jon Snow. vs. the Forces of Darkness. Reducing it to that means losing a lot of the story's impact, both the broader narrative and the specific story at the Wall.

And since so much has been lost, all that's left is Kit Harington fighting spooky skeletons. That's depressing.

This post has been edited by Al_Cone: Jun 8 2015, 01:57 PM


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Post #63
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post Jun 8 2015, 02:39 PM
Al, you're either kidding yourself or wasting energy getting worked up over it if you think they had even a chance of implementing the numerous factors from Danys Dance plotline, not without giving everything else the shaft. They hit the important beats, she tried force and that didn't work and she tried appeasement and that didn't work. Of course it doesn't even hold a candle to how it is in the books but it just comes with the restrictions of the medium. It’s pointless to bring such an argument up.


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Post #64
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post Jun 8 2015, 03:06 PM
QUOTE (TheOneAndOnly @ Jun 8 2015, 03:39 PM) *
Al, you're either kidding yourself or wasting energy getting worked up over it if you think they had even a chance of implementing the numerous factors from Danys Dance plotline, not without giving everything else the shaft. They hit the important beats, she tried force and that didn't work and she tried appeasement and that didn't work. Of course it doesn't even hold a candle to how it is in the books but it just comes with the restrictions of the medium. It’s pointless to bring such an argument up.


It did work, though; the marriage to Hizzie Lizzie fo Fizzie was part of the pact to end the violence in Meereen (it also, notably, wasn't something she originally proposed, but something she was reluctant to pursue until she felt she was out of options). And it worked, in no small part due to the fact that Hizdahr was behind the Sons of the Harpy conspiracy. He puts an end to the violence, marries Dany, offs Dany, and rules all on his lonesome, all according to keikaku.

That's not in the show, though, and the Sons of the Harpy don't seem to give two shits about their marriage. So what was the point? Again, they hit the story beats, but removed from context, they don't mean a whole lot. They drift from A, to B, to C, with nothing tying them together. The story moves forward on inertia alone.

There's a lot that Dany has to consider in her story; there are a lot of people on different fronts manipulating her, and a lot of different factions she needs to appease. That's...that's not in the show, though. Her story is boiled down to its bones, and those bones are rearranged to form a different shape which is reminiscent of a skeleton, yet drastically different at the same time. I'm not saying that they need to include absolutely everything; they want to ditch the Golden Company and Brown Ben Plumm and the Pale Mare and the ongoing siege of Meereen and just focus on the internal drama, okay, fine, I see the necessity. But so much of that context needed to understand that drama is removed, and what's left doesn't make a lot of sense on its own.

This post has been edited by Al_Cone: Jun 8 2015, 03:07 PM


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Post #65
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post Jun 8 2015, 03:17 PM
Alright, I do understand now where you're getting at.

The show could have still worked in the inside forces trying to pull and sway Dany; unfortunately, it offed Barristan needlessly, omitted the Green Grace, the Shavepate and the Other Guy, and Xaro Xohan Duck Sauce is offed in the show. It just leaves Dany struggling with a rebellion inside her walls. I think it did still work and made sense, personally, but a lot of the intrigue has been removed. I think the more important part of Dany's story isn't the political buzz going on around her, but her trying to find the balance of being a good ruler, and for what it is I think the show has done that serviceably enough.

As far as the Sons of the Harpy goes, it's actually theorized in the books that Hizdhar never was in charge of them at all, but instead they were led by the Green Grace. But she's cut, so we can't really know for sure.


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Post #66
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post Jun 8 2015, 03:50 PM
QUOTE (TheOneAndOnly @ Jun 8 2015, 04:17 PM) *
As far as the Sons of the Harpy goes, it's actually theorized in the books that Hizdhar never was in charge of them at all, but instead they were led by the Green Grace. But she's cut, so we can't really know for sure.


Even if he wasn't, he was clearly in on the whole thing. He more or less admits to trying to kill Dany with the poisoned locusts.

You know who I miss? I really miss Strong Belwas. confused.gif I understand his omission, but I loved that fat motherfucker.


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Post #67
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post Jun 8 2015, 05:01 PM
Many people think Hizdhar was just an opportunist that wanted to be king of Meereen.

And yeah, Strong Belwas was just that "one character" who was served no real purpose but was just so damn lovable. I also miss Satin; he was a unique minor character who was controversially made Jon's steward, and he was awesome because of that. But instead we have...Olly, who eye-fucks the camera whenever wildlings are mentioned and is the reason why Dave Hill was promoted to assistant writer for season 5. That may actually explain the multitude of cliches in this season.

I also hope they don't cut Victarion. A recent casting call gave descriptions of some characters who are obviously Euron Greyjoy and (maybe) Damphair. I need Victarion to lose his shit at a bunch of monkeys and dramatically pledge to sail the Dothraki Sea.

This post has been edited by TheOneAndOnly: Jun 8 2015, 05:01 PM


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Post #68
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post Jun 8 2015, 05:57 PM
QUOTE (TheOneAndOnly @ Jun 8 2015, 06:01 PM) *
Many people think Hizdhar was just an opportunist that wanted to be king of Meereen.

And yeah, Strong Belwas was just that "one character" who was served no real purpose but was just so damn lovable. I also miss Satin; he was a unique minor character who was controversially made Jon's steward, and he was awesome because of that. But instead we have...Olly, who eye-fucks the camera whenever wildlings are mentioned and is the reason why Dave Hill was promoted to assistant writer for season 5. That may actually explain the multitude of cliches in this season.

I also hope they don't cut Victarion. A recent casting call gave descriptions of some characters who are obviously Euron Greyjoy and (maybe) Damphair. I need Victarion to lose his shit at a bunch of monkeys and dramatically pledge to sail the Dothraki Sea.


I understand that Balon Greyjoy is still alive as of the most recent episode. Is he going to die suddenly between seasons? Because that's the only way I think we'd get Victarion.

Who I don't especially care for, anyway, but.

Also, since Stannis is behaving in such a laughably inconsistent fashion, and since he resembles his book counterpart in name only, I'm no longer going to refer to him as Stannis Baratheon. His name is Logan. Count Logan Baratheon.


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Post #69
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post Jun 19 2015, 11:35 AM
So I just found the greatest tumblr ever.

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She narrowed her eyes. “What is our heart’s desire?”
“Vengeance.” His voice was soft, as if he were afraid that someone might be listening. “Justice.” Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood. But what we need is a bad pussy.


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Post #70
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post Jun 19 2015, 06:20 PM
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Jun 19 2015, 11:35 AM) *

Meh. It became forced by the third one down.


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Post #71
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post Jun 22 2015, 12:20 PM
QUOTE (Al_Cone @ Jun 8 2015, 09:37 AM) *
Meanwhile, Stannis can burn his only daughter alive at the stake without so much as batting an eye. Not saying that's sexist, but it's pretty sexist.

Not only this but it's completely outside Stannis' character. He would not sacrifice his only daughter and heir to the Iron Throne should he fall. His character is smarter than that. He also loves his daughter, in spite of being malformed by grayscale, so he would give a flying fuck about burning his daughter just to try and activate a god-like sword (which emits a false light, mind you).

Completely out of character and, as far as I'm concerned, the TV writers trying to be edgy.


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Post #72
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post Jun 22 2015, 06:51 PM
Show Stannis is a different character than Book Stannis. That distinction should be obvious by now. And Show Stannis has the idea that he's the one who needs to stop the White Wallers, that he's the One Reborn, no matter the cost. He even has a conversation with Shireen beforehand about this.

And it wasn't the TV writers trying to be edgy; this has been foreshadowed since season 2, and they need him to fall now for the narrative the show is trying to tell.

I think it's bullshit writing that his downfall was due to Ramsay and his twenty good men, but the man in the show was definitely a layered character, though not one as good as the book version, by any means.

This post has been edited by TheOneAndOnly: Jun 22 2015, 06:53 PM


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Post #73
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post Jun 22 2015, 07:44 PM
QUOTE (TheOneAndOnly @ Jun 22 2015, 07:51 PM) *
Show Stannis is a different character than Book Stannis. That distinction should be obvious by now. And Show Stannis has the idea that he's the one who needs to stop the White Wallers, that he's the One Reborn, no matter the cost. He even has a conversation with Shireen beforehand about this.

And it wasn't the TV writers trying to be edgy; this has been foreshadowed since season 2, and they need him to fall now for the narrative the show is trying to tell.

I think it's bullshit writing that his downfall was due to Ramsay and his twenty good men, but the man in the show was definitely a layered character, though not one as good as the book version, by any means.


Book Stannis has the same notion, too. He is the only one of the five claimants to recognize the threat posed by the Others, and it's his ultimate goal to unite the realm in order to stop them. But this is a matter of duty, as opposed to Count Logan Baratheon being driven entirely by ambition.

You can say that he's a different character from his book counterpart, but that doesn't fully encapsulate how drastic the change is. Martin himself has said that Stannis's understanding of the conflict's full scope and his sense of duty is what makes him a truly righteous character. Count Logan being driven by ambition makes him the polar opposite--a character driven by a selfish desire to achieve his own destiny, no matter the cost, as opposed to someone who sees fulfilling that destiny as a duty, one he doesn't really want and never asked for, but one which he will accept nevertheless. Because Stannis Baratheon is a righteous man.

The show's narrative is dumb and Stannis died in a dumb way to facilitate it and all its future dumbness. Everything involving Winterfell was a mess of authorial fiat and contrivance because the writers wanted it to happen (because, creatively, it made sense).


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Post #74
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post Jun 22 2015, 08:49 PM
I always thought D&D were especially stupid when they said Stannis was ambitious, because he still says that he's doing his duty in the show, and he even treats his destiny as something that's necessary, but not what he necessarily wants.

That just gives me the impression that D&D are just copying lines from the book without understanding what they actually mean.

In other news, Jack Bender is going to be directing two episodes for season 6. If y'all don't know who he is, he's directed some of the best episodes in the series, 'Lost,' such as 'Through the Looking Glass' and 'The Constant.' I'm pretty pumped.


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